Are Manual Safeties on Striker Fired Handguns Heresy??

[JR24]

The stats show otherwise.

What do I care about stats?

I learned my lesson as a young man the embarrassment and bowl clenching fear of a ND, and it only reinforced good habits afterwards.

The only unlocked firearm in my home at any time is my CCW, and that's always on me or in the safe. Not terribly difficult to verify the location and status of the one firearm I routinely handle.

Having kids around only doubled me down on safe handling practices of the singular unsecured firearm in the house.

And no, my kids won't get to learn the combinations to my safes, even when they learn to shoot.

 

[Homerboy]

If you think about it, what real benefit is there to the manual safety? When the gun is in a holster, there really is no need for it, and when the gun is in your hand, any and all added safeties should be off and the gun ready to go. So a striker gun without a safety is really no different than a gun with a safety, from a safety standpoint. Other than you don't have to worry that the safety wasn't taken off when the gun went into your hand.

About the only added safety that might make sense to me, is one I really dislike, the mag safety. If you are in a position where the gun might get taken away in a struggle, you can drop the mag, and its now useless to whoever took it, unless they understand whats going on and can get to the mag. Works too for those who leave guns around where someone else might pick it up.

A striker fired gun is very different. A 5 pound trigger pull vs a 9-10 pound trigger pull on a DA trigger. Not to mention holstering, which is where the term "Glock Leg" came from.

A light trigger is more likely to be a factor in a ND. A weapon without a safety is more likely to be a factor in a ND. Noted gun experts like Massad Ayoob speak of safeties saving the life of the owner if the gun is taken away from them and the taker being unfamiliar with the operation, not to mention children finding them when they shouldn't. Yes, they can happen with DA guns. They happen more often with striker fired guns. LASD isn't the only department to experience this. The NYPD did, as well. Far less ND's with the SIG 226 or Smith 5946. Same training. Same time on the range. More ND's. Wonder why? And the NYPD Glock didn't even have a light trigger. Most of the ND's happened during gun cleaning, when the trigger must be pulled (design flaw, in my opinion), or while holstering. Yeah, the operator screwed up. He's a human being. We all are. We spent 2 full weeks at the range in the academy. Classroom and live fire. More than 99% of gun owners ever get. And still mistakes are made. People thinking they're above them is a mistake. The idea that you can train yourself to never make a mistake and touch that trigger when you didn't want to is laughable. And if you're that capable, training yourself to flick the safety shouldn't be a problem.

Buy and carry what you want. I carry either a Ruger LC9-S or a Shield Plus. Occasionally throw in a S&W 3953, but lighter and smaller is the name of the game with carry, for me. Both the Shield and Ruger have safeties.

 

[Homerboy]

What do I care about stats?

I learned my lesson as a young man the embarrassment and bowl clenching fear of a ND, and it only reinforced good habits afterwards.

The only unlocked firearm in my home at any time is my CCW, and that's always on me or in the safe. Not terribly difficult to verify the location and status of the one firearm I routinely handle.

Having kids around only doubled me down on safe handling practices of the singular unsecured firearm in the house.

And no, my kids won't get to learn the combinations to my safes, even when they learn to shoot.

So I guess you have it all figured out and you'll never make a mistake. Good for you.

 

[JR24]

The idea that you can train yourself to never make a mistake and touch that trigger when you didn't want to is laughable. And if you're that capable, training yourself to flick the safety shouldn't be a problem.

The idea that you can't count on yourself to respectfully and safely handle a weapon with a 5# trigger and decent length of pull is laughable, and if you are so irresponsible then who's to say you'll remember to engage the safety anyway.

I mean as long as we are going for hyperbole we might as well flip the script, right?

So I guess you have it all figured out and you'll never make a mistake. Good for you.

Or, here's a thought, perhaps I learned from past mistakes and have trained in processes that will help mitigate any possible mistakes as much as possible. Of course anyone can make mistakes, that wasn't even the thrust of your original question.

I also use a single clip holster and holster off the body, no chance of something snagging on holster (the source of Glock leg) and then after holstering, and here's a key most NDs seem to be derived from, LEAVE THE THING ALONE during the day.

I have no problem with thumb safeties, carried a 1911 plenty and a Ruger SR9 some, I just don't think they are needed for a CCW if you take basic precautions and treat a loaded weapon with the respect it deserves.

If someone is consigned to the fact that they will be unsafe and make avoidable mistakes and therefore depend on a mechanical safety to protect them, I think maybe they need to rethink their philosophy on gun handling, there are other ways to mitigate.

But then again, if it makes them feel better and they train for it, more power to them. I'm not here to tell them they are doing it wrong, I'd appreciate the same in return, but it's often not reciprocated.

I carry a DA/SA, by the way, if it's even relevant.

 

[Homerboy]

The idea that you can't count on yourself to respectfully and safely handle a weapon with a 5# trigger and decent length of pull is laughable, and if you are so irresponsible then who's to say you'll remember to engage the safety anyway.

I mean as long as we are going for hyperbole we might as well flip the script, right?



Or, here's a thought, perhaps I learned from past mistakes and have trained in processes that will help mitigate any possible mistakes as much as possible. Of course anyone can make mistakes, that wasn't even the thrust of your original question.

I also use a single clip holster and holster off the body, no chance of something snagging on holster (the source of Glock leg) and then after holstering, and here's a key most NDs seem to be derived from, LEAVE THE THING ALONE during the day.

I have no problem with thumb safeties, carried a 1911 plenty and a Ruger SR9 some, I just don't think they are needed for a CCW if you take basic precautions and treat a loaded weapon with the respect it deserves.

If someone is consigned to the fact that they will be unsafe and make avoidable mistakes and therefore depend on a mechanical safety to protect them, I think maybe they need to rethink their philosophy on gun handling, there are other ways to mitigate.

But then again, if it makes them feel better and they train for it, more power to them. I'm not here to tell them they are doing it wrong, I'd appreciate the same in return, but it's often not reciprocated.

I carry a DA/SA, by the way, if it's even relevant.

I carried a Glock 19 and a Glock 26 for years. I worked in one of the worst areas of NYC in the early 90's. I had my gun out every tour, multiple times a tour. I can count on myself handling the weapon. Still wish I had picked the S&W 5946. I have one now as my house gun.

It sounds like you had a ND in your youth. So you made a mistake. So did I. With my Glock. A week after getting out of the academy. A safety wouldn't have mattered since I pulled the trigger thinking it was empty. I made a mistake. Nobody got hurt and that day is etched in my memory. I'm actually glad it happened. Made me a much more careful person.

Whatever you opinion or mine, light triggers on striker fired guns are less forgiving of human error. And we are all capable of human error. Some people put a hole in their wall. Others put a hole in their mother's head.

 

[trackskippy]

If my safety is on, I can GET ready by the time I can line up on the target. No delay.

As long as you remember to. If the gun is in your hand, it should be ready to go. The safeties should be off.

A striker fired gun is very different. A 5 pound trigger pull vs a 9-10 pound trigger pull on a DA trigger. Not to mention holstering, which is where the term "Glock Leg" came from.

A light trigger is more likely to be a factor in a ND. A weapon without a safety is more likely to be a factor in a ND. Noted gun experts like Massad Ayoob speak of safeties saving the life of the owner if the gun is taken away from them and the taker being unfamiliar with the operation, not to mention children finding them when they shouldn't. Yes, they can happen with DA guns. They happen more often with striker fired guns. LASD isn't the only department to experience this. The NYPD did, as well. Far less ND's with the SIG 226 or Smith 5946. Same training. Same time on the range. More ND's. Wonder why? And the NYPD Glock didn't even have a light trigger. Most of the ND's happened during gun cleaning, when the trigger must be pulled (design flaw, in my opinion), or while holstering. Yeah, the operator screwed up. He's a human being. We all are. We spent 2 full weeks at the range in the academy. Classroom and live fire. More than 99% of gun owners ever get. And still mistakes are made. People thinking they're above them is a mistake. The idea that you can train yourself to never make a mistake and touch that trigger when you didn't want to is laughable. And if you're that capable, training yourself to flick the safety shouldn't be a problem.

Buy and carry what you want. I carry either a Ruger LC9-S or a Shield Plus. Occasionally throw in a S&W 3953, but lighter and smaller is the name of the game with carry, for me. Both the Shield and Ruger have safeties.

As I said before, all of this is a training issue.

Ive seen supposedly "trained" people, reholster guns without the safties set or being decocked. Ive seen them fiddling with safties they didnt get off for some reason and the gun didnt fire when they expected it to. This isnt a gun issue, its a user issue.

If you arent competent and safe in your gun handling, the number of safeties on the gun will not make one bit of difference.

As was mentioned early on here too, the military and I'll add the police, are not a good example here. Ive shot with a lot of both current and former military and police over the years, and have seen some pretty scary stuff, in both handling and shooting skills, or I should say, the lack of. People seem to think that those two groups are highly-trained when it comes to firearms, which really couldnt be farther from the truth.

 

[JR24]

It sounds like you had a ND in your youth. So you made a mistake. So did I. With my Glock. A week after getting out of the academy. A safety wouldn't have mattered since I pulled the trigger thinking it was empty. I made a mistake. Nobody got hurt and that day is etched in my memory. I'm actually glad it happened. Made me a much more careful person.

Indeed I did, with a 1911, and I agree it turned out to be a good experience on the whole.

Edit:. But I did preface the whole conversation about mistakes that it was with kids around, and admitted I had made them in the past. Of course lessons learned now play a part on future planning.

Also my original comment was to keep track of loaded guns when kids are present (or could be) which has nothing really to do with handling and more to do with responsiblity.

 

[trackskippy]

Whatever you opinion or mine, light triggers on striker fired guns are less forgiving of human error. And we are all capable of human error. Some people put a hole in their wall. Others put a hole in their mother's head.

My Glocks have the same weight trigger as my 1911's. Right around 5.5-6 pounds. Im not seeing the difference?

When I draw my 1911, the thumb safety is off, and the grip safety is depressed, finger is off the trigger. How is that gun any different in my hand than my Glock? Neither trigger will go off unless I touch it.

Or one of my SIG's, Berettas, revolvers, whatever for that matter.

This is always going to be about the user, not the gun. Its about you learning the gun you use to the point of being able to handle it without conscious thought. If you arent willing to put in the time and effort to do that, then you likely will have troubles at some point.

 

[Plan2Live]

Law enforcement and soldiers in a war zone, a pistol without a manual safety is probably a good thing. They need to have the firearm available at a moments notice.

. So based on that logic, should law enforcement and the military remove the manual safeties on their rifles and carbines?

 

[JR24]

. So based on that logic, should law enforcement and the military remove the manual safeties on their rifles and carbines?

If they start carrying them in holsters that cover the triggers? Maybe. They'd certainly want safeties on their pistols if they put a sling on them and let them bounce around unholstered as they work.

Apples and oranges, come on.

 

[cfullgraf]

. So based on that logic, should law enforcement and the military remove the manual safeties on their rifles and carbines?

That's a good question, why does no one fuss about safeties on rifles and shotguns?

 

[Kleanbore]

My Glocks have the same weight trigger as my 1911's. Right around 5.5-6 pounds. Im not seeing the difference?

Length of pull?

When I draw my 1911, the thumb safety is off,

It is if you disengage it.

 

[Kleanbore]

That's a good question, why does no one fuss about safeties on rifles and shotguns?

Holsters....

 

[JR24]

That's a good question, why does no one fuss about safeties on rifles and shotguns?

My distinction is that there's no holster for long guns, so a safety is pretty necessary if you are doing anything like moving around. I wouldn't want a Glock hanging from a lanyard as I wandered through the woods, and I see the proper holster as the primary safety when the gun is not actively being fired.

YMMV

 

[Kleanbore]

If my safety is on, I can GET ready by the time I can line up on the target. No delay.

Well, there may be some delay, but the real issue arises when you try to fire and find that you did not properly disengage the safety when you were under stress.

Ive seen them fiddling with safeties they didnt get off for some reason and the gun didn't fire when they expected it to.

Yep.

This isnt a gun issue, its a user issue.

Of course.

 

[mcb]

Because they don't have 5 pound triggers and more effort is required to pull the trigger.

If your finger is not on the trigger, as it should not be unless your sights are on the target, then it should not matter if it's a 1.5 lb trigger or a 12 lb trigger.

 

[Homerboy]

Well, there may be some delay, but the real issue arises when you try to fire and find that you did not properly disengage the safety when you were under stress.
Yep.
Of course.

“It’s a training issue, not an equipment issue”. I hear that a lot and read it a lot on gun forums. It’s another one of those “my safety is between my ears” kind of comments. Designed to make the one saying or writing it appear to possess a high level of competency.

Only problem is there is no measure of what is adequate training. No set amount of time. No credentials needed to give it. No test to prove you have mastered it. Even a high dollar class at GunSite or Thunder Ranch doesn’t prove anything. A day or two and then you’re on your way home, most likely never to repeat that level of training. And it’s all gun games anyway. No real experience comes from shooting at paper. Go to YouTube and check out some of the clowns handling weapons. Have they been trained, as well?

A few years ago on another forum there was another post just like this one. I responded to that one like I have this one, that a safety is no impediment and the pros outweigh the cons. Some clown jumps in with “Jesus, people! A safety will get you killed! Take a class, already!” Then this idiot, who claimed to be well trained by a Force Recon Marine, admitted to carrying his Beretta PX4 Storm Compact, with the hammer back on a life round and safety off. He claimed his holster kept the trigger from falling and his instructor told him it was no different than carrying a Glock and since he shot better in SA, he wasn’t going to lose his life because he was not as accurate in DA as he was in SA.

Somebody usually points out the SEALS went to the Glock 19. Yeah, the guys who sleep, eat, and do everything else with a gun in their hands went to the Glock. So the insurance salesman who watched a YouTube video and bought his Glock is just as capable.

It’s a training issue. I agree. Everything is a training issue. If you’re so confident that you can train yourself no never touch that 5 pound trigger until you want to, and so confident that nothing will ever get in that trigger guard as you reholster, then I guess you have it all figured out.

 

[Homerboy]

If your finger is not on the trigger, as it should not be unless your sights are on the target, then it should not matter if it's a 1.5 lb trigger or a 12 lb trigger.

Except it does matter. Ask the LASD and their 500% increase in ND’s. They had been trained to never touch the trigger on the Beretta. They brought in the M&P and ran the same training regimen. And they had a 500% increase in ND’s.

 

[Kleanbore]

If your finger is not on the trigger, as it should not be unless your sights are on the target, then it should not matter if it's a 1.5 lb trigger or a 12 lb trigger.

That is true, by definition. BUT people using handguns in stressful situations do touch the trigger from ti e to time, they are not ware if having done so, afterward, they deny having done so.

 

[.38 Special]

That's a good question, why does no one fuss about safeties on rifles and shotguns?

I've noticed (and joined in with) complaining about tang safeties on hammer shotguns. It seems pointless to me, much as would be a safety on a single action revolver. Lawyers...

 

[mcb]

Except it does matter. Ask the LASD and their 500% increase in ND’s. They had been trained to notch touch the trigger on the Beretta. They brought in the M&P and ran the same training regimen. And they had a 500% increase in ND’s.

First up I am not LEO. I don't know the particulars but I would expect the training was lacking. My own personal experience has the lack of a safety on every gun I have ever carried has not resulted in me being safer or more unsafe.

That is true, by definition. BUT people using handguns in stressful situations do touch the trigger from ti e to time, they are not ware if having done so, afterward, they deny having done so.

Again I would argue the training and practice was insufficient.

 

[JTQ]

“It’s a training issue, not an equipment issue”.

It’s a training issue. I agree. Everything is a training issue. If you’re so confident that you can train yourself no never touch that 5 pound trigger until you want to, and so confident that nothing will ever get in that trigger guard as you reholster, then I guess you have it all figured out.

The thing that I always find amusing in these debates is the folks that are so well trained that they'll always keep their finger off the trigger are also the same ones that will tell you they'll never carry a manual safety gun because when the "you know what hits the fan, you're going to forget to disengage the manual safety", and you're "going to get killed on the streets".

If you can train yourself to keep you finger off the trigger, and keep every foreign object from getting inside your trigger guard when reholstering, and will never drop your gun and try to catch it, well, you can probably learn to operate a manual safety.

Choose what you like.

 

[Homerboy]

The thing that I always find amusing in these debates is the folks that are so well trained that they'll always keep their finger off the trigger are also the same ones that will tell you they'll never carry a manual safety gun because when the "you know what hits the fan, you're going to forget to disengage the manual safety", and you're "going to get killed on the streets".

If you can train yourself to keep you finger off the trigger, and keep every foreign object from getting inside your trigger guard when reholstering, and will never drop your gun and try to catch it, well, you can probably learn to operate a manual safety.

Choose what you like.

That’s exactly right. Those who preach “training, training, training” like to say it to appear to be extremely competent. I would wager that most here and I am sure most gun owners in general receive less actual certified training in their lives than a police recruit gets while in the police academy, not to mention 2-3 times a year qualifying. I don’t care how often they go to the range to shoot at paper targets. That’s not training.

In PA, you don’t need any training whatsoever to buy or even carry a gun. Many states are the same. In NY, you sleep through an 8 hour course and and a few rounds at a paper target so close you can spit at it and hit it and they call you “trained”. The vast, vast, vast majority of gun owners get zero actual certified training in their entire lives, and those who do, who knows what the level of training is or how much it is continued after the check clears for the class?

I used to carry exclusively S&W 3rd gen pistols. 3913, 3914, 6906, CS9. I also really like Beretta pistols. So the slide mounted safety was just burned into me. Time went on, and I moved to lighter, smaller polymer pistols. I found myself constantly going for a slide mounted safety that wasn’t there in my LC9S or Shield. So I spent 10 minutes a night, drawing an unloaded gun and disengaging safety. Within a few weeks, it became automatic. Now my beloved Berettas and 3rd Gen’s are range use only, so as not to confuse my muscle memory with a different safety. My house gun is a 5946. No safety but longer trigger pull and a hammer.

 

[Homerboy]

First up I am not LEO. I don't know the particulars but I would expect the training was lacking. My own personal experience has the lack of a safety on every gun I have ever carried has not resulted in me being safer or more unsafe.



Again I would argue the training and practice was insufficient.

The particulars are in the article I posted. They used the Beretta 92 for years and then brought in the M&P. They didn’t change the training course. They had been taught to not touch the trigger on the Beretta, just as they were taught not to touch the trigger on the M&P. 500% increase in ND’s. The investigation recommended more training for the M&P then what was required for the Beretta. Pretty cut and dry. Same training with different gun resulted in more ND’s with the new gun.

 

[trackskippy]

Length of pull?

Im not sure what youre getting at here. The Glock is about a quarter of an inch longer, pre take up, and is the same with take up. I shoot both regularly, and never had any problem shooting both well.

It is if you disengage it.

Ive never had an issue there. More troubles with the grip saftey since Ive been shooting things like Glock, with a lower bore axis more. Trying to get that higher grip on a 1911 and it tends to kick the grip safety in and you get a dead trigger. Yet another reason to stay on top of things and work them out in practice, instead of standing there looking at the gun with a stupid look on your face when it stops working. .

The thing that I always find amusing in these debates is the folks that are so well trained that they'll always keep their finger off the trigger are also the same ones that will tell you they'll never carry a manual safety gun because when the "you know what hits the fan, you're going to forget to disengage the manual safety", and you're "going to get killed on the streets".

If you can train yourself to keep you finger off the trigger, and keep every foreign object from getting inside your trigger guard when reholstering, and will never drop your gun and try to catch it, well, you can probably learn to operate a manual safety.

Choose what you like.

Argee 110%, choose what you like and learn it to the point of not having to think about shooting it or working it. Doesnt matter what the gun is.

And to take it up a notch, do the same thing with as many different types of gun platforms as you can. Then youll be way ahead.

You dont get proficient and safe by reading about it and talking about it, you get there by constantly doing it, and preferably, on a daily basis. At least daily in dryfire, and preferably weekly in live fire, and from how you carry it.

Doing a basic qualification and/or maybe some training, on a quarterly or bi quarterly basis, and not maintaining and improving on what you learned with constant training, and pushing forward on your own with it, really isnt "training". You took a class and left it at that.

Shooting and handling firearms is a perishable skill, especially handguns. They are something you need to work on constantly, and shooting them is only a part of it. "Accidents" happen because you didnt take that seriously.