Are Manual Safeties on Striker Fired Handguns Heresy??

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by BobinNC, Jul 28, 2021.

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  1. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    To misquote the crew and Captain of the Pinafore "Every?" "Well, nearly every".

    I daresay you can find somebody to take either side. Not to mention the "Israeli carry" experts for whom the safety doesn't matter because the gun is not loaded anyhow.
     
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  2. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    You have made it very clear you believe a good holster and trigger discipline are the only safeties needed on a pistol. Unfortunately, you have also shown your disdain for ANY other possible explanation concerning manual safeties and instead simply attack others as being incompetent.

    I hope you are always as good -and thus safe- as you think you are. I and many others have, and will continue, to take extra steps when we believe it is appropriate to better ensure safety.
     
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  3. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    If someone grabs your carry weapon away from you, a manual safety on a weapon type not expected to have one could give you a second chance.
     
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  4. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    That is a demonstrably false comment.
     
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  5. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    The indoor and outdoor ranges simply show how scary many people using, and maybe carrying guns are, and that many need training and work, just to be "basically" safe. Although Im sure they all think they are experts if you question them.

    Ive shot a many of those ranges over the years and have seen all sorts of pretty scary stuff, and really don't like going to any of them that are busy or heavily used. Holes in dividers, tables, walls, floors, ceilings, as you described, is a good indicator of "what the weapon is, doesn't matter". Basic safety and common sense doesn't seem to either.


    I believe a good holster and trigger discipline are the two things that differentiate the educated and the nimrods. What does it matter if the gun has a safety or not?

    Ive carried guns that had either a manual safety or a DA first strike trigger, and always followed the same drill as I do with my Glocks. If the gun has a safety, I use it, except with guns like the Beretta's, or similar that have slide, or even frame mounted safeties and DA triggers. I see no need to use it there. Once any of them are in my hand, they are ready to shoot. The thought process for the safety was dealt with on the draw, and it really wasn't a thought at all. And once the guns are in my hand, my finger is along the trigger guard.

    If my finger drifts into the trigger guard and I somehow don't know it, I guess it is what it is, but in about a bazillion rounds of shooting from a holster, I can not for the life of me, ever remember a round going off, that I didn't intend to let go (not saying I didn't let an extra round or to go when shooting in bursts, but they seemed appropriate at the time :)), and Im not talking about always just standing there and shooting from a static position. Is it possible it could the very next time out, absolutely, but I find that it happening, is probably about the same odds of me dying from Covid, using the "real" numbers. ;)

    As I said earlier, a solution for that if it bothers you, is one of the guns with a mag safety. As much as I detest them, that would probably be a good option for someone who is likely to be in a wrestling match with some who might want to take it, retention training or not. Its an option, but in reality, how much of a threat is it really?
     
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  6. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    I’ll be happy when the fork comes out for this thread. I think everything has been said twice.
     
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  7. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    For a "given size grip", which is what I said in my post, the thicker magazine walls result in less internal space in the mag. If the grip is allowed to grow, then the same internal space in the mag can be maintained. But the bottom line is that if the magazine walls are significantly thicker, that has to be paid for in one way or another. Either in grip size or in internal magazine volume.
    That's completely incorrect.

    My very first post on this thread said that "There is certainly a place for manual safeties."

    Later in the thread I also posted this: "I have guns in both configurations and carry guns in both configurations. Obviously, then, I believe that both configurations have their place."

    In fact, the last time I carried concealed in public it was with a gun that has a manual safety.
    I've not said anyone is incompetent and I've not attacked anyone. What I've done is debunk arguments that aren't valid. There certainly are good reasons to own guns with manual safeties and reasons to use manual safeties (which is why I do both), but some of the arguments used to support manual safeties just don't hold water.
     
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  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I started out many years ago convinced--convinced--that all semi-automatic pistols should have safeties.

    I knew nothing at all about defensive shooting and shooting from the draw, but I found the 1911-pattern safety quite adequate for that.

    When a special offer for the M&P 9c led to my buying one, I insisted on a model with a safety. The one they had had an ambidextrous safety. I carried IWB. I noticed that the safety became disengaged quite often when it was in the holster. .I could not rely on it.

    When I went to replace it, I looked at various models, all with safeties. Some, I could not manipulate well one handed. I could not disengage the one on the BHP easily when drawing. I ended up choosing a Ruger SR9c. That one seemed okay. But even with a lot of practice, I found that the disengagement of the safety upon the draw was nowhere near as positive as on the 1911.

    Not good. I not want to have anything keep the trigger from working when I need it

    I replaced the gun with an XDS 9 4.0, which had a grip safety. The trigger pull is not to my liking, but the gun is reliable.

    I now carry a Smith and Wesson EZ 9--the one with only a grip safety.

    I also have a Ruger American Compact pistol No safety. I swallowed hard. I now also have an LCP Max.

    I minimize handling them, I use excellent holsters, and I am extremely careful about clearing the holster when putting a gun in it.
     
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  9. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    Oh, absolutely. :rofl:

     
  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That blew by me.
     
  11. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I understand it's too late now, so fwiw, I have the m&p9c with the thumb safety. It's a very early 1.0 model.

    I agree the lever wasnt very firm. The fact that the safety lever is roughly the size of a slice of pizza also didnt help keep it in the safe position.

    I filed down the size of the lever and also firmed it up and never has it disengaged. accidentally again.

    Of course, it was really no more dangerous than a non thumb safety model but I like to to stay put.

    At the time, it was all the people with out glock leg that made me reevaluate the thumb safety.... what its good for & what it isnt good for and what the lack of thumb safety was good for and not good for.
     
  12. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    That's ridiculous.

    You made the statement that "I have never heard anyone express the idea they used a manual safety because they could not competently exercise trigger discipline." and I agreed with it. You are correct--people don't claim that they need a manual safety and then give the rationale for that need as their own incompetence to exercise trigger discipline.

    But make no mistake, there certainly are people who claim that incompetence when it comes to trigger discipline exists and that it can be solved with manual safeties.

    As you say, they don't claim that they themselves are personally incompetent, but they do claim that the lack of competent trigger discipline in others (or in general) is why manual safeties should exist and should be used.

    So, in fact, the accusation of incompetence in the realm of trigger discipline comes from the people who advocate manual safeties as a solution for the problem.

    I don't take that view for two reasons. First of all, I believe that it's possible to achieve competence when it comes to trigger discipline, and second, I also believe that a person who (for whatever reason) can't achieve proper trigger discipline is extremely unlikely to be able to work a manual safety properly for the same reasons that prevent them from achieving competence in the area of trigger discipline.

    So no, I absolutely have not attacked anyone and I have absolutely not accused anyone of being incompetent when it comes to trigger discipline--not even in general.
     
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  13. CNobbe

    CNobbe Member

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    My carry guns (43X, LCP Max) don't have safeties. My nightstand guns are decocked to DA, or have the safety on. No idea why, probably just experience with shooting them over the years, but I have no issues whether a pistol has a safety not, it depends on the purpose of the firearm - at least for me.
     
  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Reports of Glock leg kept me away from guns without safeties for a long time.

    No longer. But I am not complacent.

    I ensure that the holster is clear every time I put a gun in it, and when I holster the gun, I turn so that a discharge would not harm me, the dog, or anyone else.
     
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  15. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Me too. But when I found my m&p9c with the safety off I started thinking things thru about the millions(?) of glocks.... and the percentage of glock legs and the reasons behind them... it was a good mental exercise & ultimately led me to be more aware.

    I probably didn't word that very well.... but it's dinner time. Gotta go. I'm hungry.
     
  16. Homerboy

    Homerboy Member

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    I agree the safety on the M&P line, other than the Shield, is too big, not quite positive enough for me, and I hate that it’s on both sides. With all the aftermarket garbage that is offered for all makes of guns (who really needs a Punisher logo on the striker plate or a pistol bayonet, not to mention the huge offerings of all other parts on the M&P guns), I don’t know why somebody hasn’t come out with a single sided lever for either right or left shooters, and not nearly as wide, with maybe a more positive click.

    That being said, if the safety does come off when it shouldn’t, that’s gonna happen after the gun is in the holster, so at least you can help avoid Glock Leg. Grip safeties like the one in the EZ line or the XD are good for that, also. Place your thumb on the striker plate like you would a hammer as you holster and the grip safety is disengaged. I have an M&P 9 EZ. With the safety. Very nice shooting gun.
     
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  17. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    I had the reverse experience of danes 71. I was carrying an old Ruger P-series DA/SA with the safety off because it seemed awkward to me. I found the safety on. I came to the conclusion that if one is going to carry a pistol with a safety they must train to disengage it whether they leave it on or not. Slide mounted safeties are the opposite of ergonomic for me.

    I got a 380 EZ but I am still trying to get it straightened out. It on occasion feeds the last round in the magazine all the way through the pistol & out the ejection port, or stovepipes a live round. I sent it back to S&W & the issue persists. They are supposed to be sending me more mag springs & followers but I am thoroughly annoyed. I got it for my wife to use & chose .380 because she is averse to recoil. I hope I can get it to work as it would be an expensive paperweight. I haven't read of any issues with the 9mm version.

    FWIW I pretty much agree with JohnK SA whether a person uses a safety or doesn't they still have to learn the proper manual of arms for their pistol. I don't believe it is possible to idiot proof a firearm no matter how many safeties you put on it. I carry striker fired guns without a safety. If someone else believes it better to have a safety that is fine. Either way it is the owners responsibility to learn their guns manual of arms & how to handle & operate it safely. FWIW I will never buy another pistol with a slide mounted safety & before I buy any gun that has a safety I will make sure it's shape & location work for me. If it does not I will not buy the gun no matter how well I like the rest of it.
     
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  18. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Amen brother. I've had enough safeties, especially ambidextrous safeties accidentally get disengaged to ever trust one left "off" to not accentually get switched to "on".

    If it's got it, train to use it, as far as I'm concerned.
     
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  19. Homerboy

    Homerboy Member

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    I agree if you’re gonna carry with safety on you have to practice disengaging it on the draw. If it was still on safe when it should have been, you disengage it. If it somehow came off safe on its own or by being bumped, when you go to disengage it it’s already off, so no issue.

    The .380 EZ has that last round ejecting issue. A few videos on YouTube have it happening. Hickock45 and Justinopinion are two of them for sure. I saw a couple of others. S&W is aware of it but seem to be ignoring it. The M&P 9MM doesn’t have that issue. There are two indents in the top of the magazine that are not in the .380 magazine. Jerry Miculek specifically mentions it in this video at 2:45.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  20. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    I quoted your statement, wrote that I absolutely agreed, included an emoji to indicate it would be laughable to think differently, and even quoted you to indicate you never attacked a specific individual. And you still seem dissatisfied.
     
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  21. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Got it. I think I understand how this works now.
    Oh, absolutely. :rofl:

    :thumbup:
     
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  22. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    I just wish I had known last year before I bought the pistol. I looked around & didn't really see anything negative. I have been slowly dealing with this. I procastinate partly because of life getting in the way, partly because I am annoyed with S&W & I am trying to avoid getting too angry. I do have a couple of ideas of work arounds but I am still mad.
     
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  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    "Glock leg" has occurred with body movement, after guns gave been in the holster for some time.
     
  24. Homerboy

    Homerboy Member

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    Indeed it has. I bet you body movement while in the holster has never pulled a DA trigger. There was a post on here a few years ago where a guy’s Glock fired from his holster while he was putting on his seatbelt or something. The leather had begun to fray and got caught in the trigger guard. Yeah, he should have had a better holster, but he didn’t.
     
  25. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Very true.

    Which is a good example of why 'my holster is the safety' is not an infallible alternative even if you get the gun holstered with out some thing in the trigger. Holsters get worn out.


    It's been said here that saftey is best layered. And that's true.

    It's also true that if the process of drawing your weapon, getting on target, and firing has turned into something like opening a combination lock, it can become too difficult or time consuming to the point of being ineffective when needed most.
     
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