Are Negligent Discharges Inevitable?

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I have been teaching hunt safe courses for 39 years, so I am heavily invested in the theory that training can reduce, but never eliminate, the odds of injury. In trying to help the young ones get off to a safe, if somewhat awkward, start, I get a refresher course every season and still catch myself doing things I should not, and not doing things I should.

It is a never ending process to try to do better. I am still working on it not only for my own safety, but because there are usually other eyes watching and maybe learning.
 
I work in an industrial environment and “safety first” is recited like a religion. They always say “all accidents can be prevented” and while that may be technically true we don’t live in a perfect world.

Crap happens, it will inevitably happen, and it is also always preventable….. I think it’s called a paradox.
 
It is a problem that has no real cure as people are human and they get tired careless lazy or under the influence of something and it can happen as stated here we don't live in a perfect world. I have prevented several from new recruits who have glocks and the way to disassemble a glock is to remove the magazine and rack the slide and press the trigger/ only the newbies only remove the magazine and forget to take the one out of the chamber I have stopped that a few times at the clearing barrel.
 
Without me knowing it, the extractor hook had broken off my 1911. I found it on my workbench after this event.

I was wondering around the Grasslands shooting at rocks and other targets of opportunity and the gun functioned normally all day, with the shells extracting and ejecting normlly--apparently due to residual pressures.

Got back to camp and disarmed, pulled the mag, operated the slide a couple of times and nothing came out. I assumed a round had not fed, pointed it at a fence post and pulled the trigger tp uncock it.

They say the two worst sounds are a click when you expect a bang and a bang when you expect a click.

The fence post was as shocked as I was.

Terry, 230RN
 
Someone on another forum had a negligent discharge.

Another poster commented
"Handle a gun long enough and something like this is going to happen."

I don't think that's a good attitude. I don't think that's a good way to look at things. I think it sets you up for failure.

Do you really think that it's inevitable that everybody's going to have negligent discharge at some point in their life?

BY DEFINITION, negligent discharges are NOT "inevitable".

Negligent discharges are the result of negligent behavior and this is entirely within our abilities to prevent.

ACCIDENTAL discharges, however, are a different matter entirely. By definition, they are the result of circumstances BEYOND our ability to control.

Confusing the two definitions does not alter this.
 
I ask: How often did you carry a firearm every single day while deployed for twelve months to a hostile are, often working twelve to twenty hours a day for days on end, humping your firearm, occasionally having to use it, and then returning to your base after three or four or five days with a only a few -- if any - cumulative hours of sleep, then trying to figure out a clearing barrel when your brain was in a total fog state?

Two tours in Vietnam in the early 70s as a Marine Scout. I ate, drank, and slept with my m40 and a 1911 almost the entire time. I was in a hide for over two days once waiting for a shot. Tired? Been there done that, thanks. Still have never had an AD, but I'm getting old so stand by...
 
This is a good topic for discussion when folks can keep the self-righteousness and preachyness out of it...

Well, sorry. I take issue with the idea that we're all going to accidentally shoot off our guns some day, and I reject the excuses made for it. We should not be telling each other that "Hey, sometimes you're just tired or having a bad day and will pull a trigger when you didn't mean to", but rather that "Discipline is a full time job and a duty to those around us".
 
Without me knowing it, the extractor hook had broken off my 1911. I found it on my workbench after this event.

I was wondering around the Grasslands shooting at rocks and other targets of opportunity and the gun functioned normally all day, with the shells extracting and ejecting normlly--apparently due to residual pressures.

Got back to camp and disarmed, pulled the mag, operated the slide a couple of times and nothing came out. I assumed a round had not fed, pointed it at a fence post and pulled the trigger tp uncock it.

They say the two worst sounds are a click when you expect a bang and a bang when you expect a click.

The fence post was as shocked as I was.

Terry, 230RN

I think your case clearly illustrates the difference between a negligent and an accidental discharge. Equipment malfunctions are often beyond operator control and therefore not assignable to the operator per se, but trying to anticipate them and compensate accordingly is exactly the kind of thing your clearance procedure achieved. Good job avoiding a potential catastrophe.
 
... Got back to camp and disarmed, pulled the mag, operated the slide a couple of times and nothing came out. I assumed a round had not fed, pointed it at a fence post and pulled the trigger tp uncock it. ...
Terry, 230RN
That's how I almost got head-shot with the 03A3. After camping out in an old cabin one winter night when we were about 15 or so, my best friend was sitting on his sleeping bag and cycling the rounds from the magazine through the chamber and ejecting them. He continued to cycle the bolt about 4 or 5 times after what he assumed was the last round had ejected. Then he casually tilted the rifle over to about a 45 degree angle and pulled the trigger intending to dry fire it. I was standing about 6 or 8 feet away and the round missed my head by probably 3 inches or slightly more (we could see where the bullet actually impacted the wall of the cabin). Almost as lucky as not getting hit by the bullet is the fact that I had no hearing damage. Not only was it a .30-06 forward muzzle blast at close range, it was in a confined space.
 
That's how I almost got head-shot with the 03A3. After camping out in an old cabin one winter night when we were about 15 or so, my best friend was sitting on his sleeping bag and cycling the rounds from the magazine through the chamber and ejecting them. He continued to cycle the bolt about 4 or 5 times after what he assumed was the last round had ejected. Then he casually tilted the rifle over to about a 45 degree angle and pulled the trigger intending to dry fire it. I was standing about 6 or 8 feet away and the round missed my head by probably 3 inches or slightly more (we could see where the bullet actually impacted the wall of the cabin). Almost as lucky as not getting hit by the bullet is the fact that I had no hearing damage. Not only was it a .30-06 forward muzzle blast at close range, it was in a confined space.

Wow, that's scary just to read about. Glad that wasn't what it could have been.
 
Someone on another forum had a negligent discharge.

Another poster commented
"Handle a gun long enough and something like this is going to happen."

I don't think that's a good attitude. I don't think that's a good way to look at things. I think it sets you up for failure.

Do you really think that it's inevitable that everybody's going to have negligent discharge at some point in their life?

I do not think everyone will have an AD/ND during their life. However, they can and do often occur. With some it’s not all that uncommon of an occurrence.

The quote you posted is how people brush off their past mistakes.

The “rules” we follow for gun safety are to mitigate results if one, likely or unlikely, has one.

Accidents do happen, just not to everyone. If all you did everyday of your life was work with and around firearms, you would be at a higher risk than someone who never touches one their entire life. That still doesn’t mean you’ll have to have one before you die, though.
 
I've never had one in 4+ decades of gun handling, and I'm not sure they are inevitable. Probably for some. Maintain your weapons with reasonable care and strictly adhere to the Four Rules and the probability goes so low as to be virtually non-existent.
In my case, five + decades. Thank god, no unintentional discharges. I dislike the words 'accidental' and 'negligent'. I did nave one close call that resulted in my paying much closer attention to whether my firearm is loaded or not.
Case in point: At home, spouse out shopping, took the Ruger Blackhawk out of the safe, was sighting on a spot on the garage wall, cocked the hammer, sighted a bit more, glanced at the rear of the cylinder and saw brass. Oh sh..t. Carefully released the hammer and unloaded the gun. Went into the house to see where the shot would have gone. Would have taken out the stereo....humm would I have had time to go out and buy a new one and patch the holes before she came home? I think not.
Ever since, I check a firearm when it comes out of the safe, after it comes out of the gun bag, before it goes back into the bag and again before it goes back into the safe. Happily, my loving spouse doesn't distract me when I come home by telling me about the problem with (fill in the blank) before I have put the guns away.;);););)
 
I take issue with the idea that we're all going to accidentally shoot off our guns some day, and I reject the excuses made for it.
Where did I say that? And I made no excuses; simply noted some factors. Whilst explaining that those that handle firearms daily in the course of their jobs are more at risk for slips.
We should not be telling each other that "Hey, sometimes you're just tired or having a bad day and will pull a trigger when you didn't mean to", but rather that "Discipline is a full time job and a duty to those around us".
Sigh. If that's how you choose to interpret what I said... Perhaps I should have attempted to write more clearly. I spoke to my belief that NDs are NOT inevitable, but also stated that they CAN happen -- to anyone, at any time. Why do you want to argue what I said? Pretty simple, I thought.

I too know folks who have (according to them) never had an ND in more than 50 years of firearms use. That's great.
 
If the question (the exact title as its written) is a legitimate question, then the entire mindset and safety culture is skewed and broken.

Every incident and accident of any type has a great deal that occurs before it. Flawed behaviors, unsafe practices, disregards for the rules, complacency, just to name a few occur long before the final big incident occurs.
Unfortunately, in firearm handling, there are no bells or alarms that sound off when these "red flags" start to occur. And often these things occur many times often over a period of years or even decades before the actual incident.

Trigger finger control, muzzle control, and practices when loading and unloading firearms just to name a few some may take for granted.
 
Where did I say that? And I made no excuses; simply noted some factors. Whilst explaining that those that handle firearms daily in the course of their jobs are more at risk for slips.
Sigh. If that's how you choose to interpret what I said... Perhaps I should have attempted to write more clearly. I spoke to my belief that NDs are NOT inevitable, but also stated that they CAN happen -- to anyone, at any time. Why do you want to argue what I said? Pretty simple, I thought.

I too know folks who have (according to them) never had an ND in more than 50 years of firearms use. That's great.

I went back and reread your post with an open mind, and it honestly looks to me like you were excusing NGs - that people who haven't had any just haven't been around enough guns in difficult situations, and that disagreement is self-righteous and preachy. If that's not how you meant it, then we have little disagreement.
 
Do you really think that it's inevitable that everybody's going to have negligent discharge at some point in their life?

I have had one. My wife has never had one. A shooting friend has never had one. My martial arts teacher had one.

The risk exists for anyone to have one and that's why we must be vigilant.
 
Someone on another forum had a negligent discharge.

Another poster commented
"Handle a gun long enough and something like this is going to happen."

I don't think that's a good attitude. I don't think that's a good way to look at things. I think it sets you up for failure.

Do you really think that it's inevitable that everybody's going to have negligent discharge at some point in their life?

I don't think it's necessarily inevitable, but it's definitely possible to have happen even if you're paying attention.
After a long hiatus, I re-engaged with my firearms hobby a couple of years ago. I purchased several new guns and was at the range, trying them out for the first time. I first shot a couple of my Glocks, along with a S&W Shield. The triggers on those striker fired guns are not dis-similar -- they both have about the same pull weight and both have a wall. I next shot my H&K p2000sk, a classic HK "Version 3" DA/SA gun. As many of you know, the first DA pull of that gun is heavy, followed by a MUCH lighter SA follow-up and there is no "wall" like on a striker gun. I was well aware of the DA/SA distinction and had been dry-firing the weapon. During my first live fire, I fired the first round in DA mode and then I advertently fired a second round because of the short reset and lack of trigger wall, which I think I was sub-consciously anticipating because of the Glocks I had just been firing. The inadvertent round went down range in the general direction of the target but was way, way off. Was this an accidental, or a negligent discharge? I'm thinking accidental, but I could argue that it was negligent as well because I knew of the short reset and light SA trigger and did not operate it correctly. If I were applying the legal definition of "negligence," however, it was definitely an accidental discharge because there was no damage or injury (and the legal definition has four components: duty, breach of that duty, causation, and damages). As a side note, I replaced the V3 p2000sk with a V2 model, which has the LEM trigger that was designed in part to prevent the exact scenario that I experienced....
 
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I suppose one might say they are inevitable in as much as, If you engage enough humans in any given activity, eventually one will make every imaginable mistake. But technically 'inevitable' can be reduced to 'outrageously remote'. We as gun owners, soldiers, cops, trainers, and parents must take on the responsibility of making standardized safety rules the norm. Yes. We are going over the safety rules again. Yes, I just watched you check it. Now I'm going to check it again. Yes, I am going to remind you about your muzzle even through you outrank me.

My unit loves my safety trainings so much, they have farmed me out to give it to other companies. How many rules? Four. Which of these rules must be broken in order for someone to get hurt? ALL FOUR, AT THE SAME TIME.
 
One thing that surprises me concerns the difficulty/inability to See the chamber in an HK-91, or my pair of 'assembled' PTR-91s. Possibly the same situation in C/HK-93 or MP-5?

Some highly-seasoned HK owners on Youtube (one is a Tech in “the” HK Shop: ie “Sofilein shoots G3”) -------simply 1} lock the bolt carrier open and 2} remove the mag—-

—but they Never seem to stick/Reach their pinky Finger into the chamber—-:scrutiny:

o_OThis puzzles me. I’m Unable to see the chamber in my PTR unless it is field-stripped with the butt stock etc removed. In this photo, the chamber is several inches forward of the ejection port. I'm 5'11" and it's a pretty long reach for the Pinky to Feel the chamber's circular opening.

What extra safety procedure do they follow which I missed?…although they always Pull the cocked trigger on a (possibly) empty chamber “when finished”—-

PTR44.jpg
 
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If you don't take precautions against negligent/accidental discharge, negligent/accidental discharge becomes more likely.

Muzzle awareness. Know where the muzzle is pointed at all times. Don't the muzzle paint anything you can't fix a hole in.
 
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