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are patrol carbines and tazers phasing out shotguns in law enforcement?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by beehlebf, Mar 12, 2012.

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  1. beehlebf

    beehlebf Member

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    More and more are LEOs have access to patrol carbines such as Ar15s. Tazers are also used in lesser confrontations more and more frequently. Will the use of precision rifles with nonoverpenetrating ammo and tazers phase out shotguns with bean bag rounds or buckshot? I mean theres less of a chance of hurting someone when ising a taser over a beanbag round and rifles will put every shot ther with no piece of buckshot missing at risk of hitting a bystander. Ahotguns will always have their place but are they being knocked off their pedestal
     
  2. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    I would say yes. Not much a shotgun will do for Police work that a Carbine can't. One advantage of the Carbines is the fact that over penetration in buildings isn't as much as a risk and they can pierce body armor.
     
  3. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    What? If a shotgun is using buckshot it will have less penetration than a patrol rifle.



    My department, which is moderately large still mainly has shotguns and only a few have patrol rifles (which I believe to be a mistake). I think patrol rifles are the better option but it's good to have a mixture of both.
    .
     
  4. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Buckshot and handgun bullets tend to penatrate structures more than high velocity rifles firing expanding bullets.

    This is because at the velocities a rifle bullet travels at means the bullet has no chance of surviving the sort of disruption it sees striking something substantial. They just disintegrate.

    See mythbusters bullets and water for more.

    posted via mobile device.
     
  5. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    I think a lot of departments are getting worried about seeing armor on bad guys.
     
  6. maskedman504

    maskedman504 Member

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    They are still used for breaching...
     
  7. imsobored

    imsobored Member

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    My old manufacturing company was workin with taser to develop a shotgun taser cartridge. Not sure if it made it past development stage or not

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using tapatalk
     
  8. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    It did. I believe it's called the Xrep. My department is said to be the first to ever use it. It was used twice in different incidents and didn't work. I'm not sure if thick winter jackets prevented it from working though or if it just did not work.
     
  9. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    The Tazer has an entirely different use.

    The patrol carbine seems to be an add-on instead of a replacement for the shotgun. Cash strapped departments aren't going to dump a weapon system they already have and don't have to pay for to replace it with one that costs them money, but they are adding carbines as they can because of the perception of the need for them.
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Any clue on how many departments actually own, train with, issue, or ever deploy bean-bag rounds? I don't think it's very many. Tasers appear on the duty belts of nearly every officer. Beanbag rounds are extremely special-purpose items.
     
  11. Mr Woody

    Mr Woody Member

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    My old department added patrol rifles years ago and everyone liked them. The Shotgun ended up being confined to less lethal in the patrol cars about 11 years ago. Personally I think this also made qualification time a bit easier. SRT still had the breaching rounds but patrol got rid of its shot shells.

    This seemed to work well for us.
     
  12. beehlebf

    beehlebf Member

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    Do u think patrol rifles are needed or are they more for piece of mind
     
  13. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Yes. In my "little town", the cruisers have M4-config semi-autos (I think and I hope they're not full-auto) between the driver and front passenger seat.

    The carbine is a more versatile weapon than the shotgun, with far less recoil. I'd prefer a shotgun if I was doing a dynamic entry (with Gecko right next to me, of course! :p), but for most anything else, carbine.
    Depends on the ammo. A 55-gr HP does not necessarily penetrate far in gel.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  14. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    99 days out of 100, they're just for peace of mind. ('Piece' of mind? Yuck! :barf:)

    Then one day there's someone with a REALLY bad idea, or who's tenuous thread of sanity just snapped, and the ability to place a compelling shot at 50+ yards becomes critical.

    Whether most officers train well enough to be able to take that shot, I don't know.

    But remember, a large part of an officer's toolset is his/her physical presence -- what you might call intimidation factor. A lot fewer lives are lost when a hostile person sees that overwhelming force is present and that continuing a fight can only end badly.
     
  15. GEM

    GEM Member

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    The carbine is, in part, for a Black Swan event. If there is an extreme and intensive critical incident, it may be needed.

    The characteristics of such, as we see today, are better handled by carbines than shotguns.
     
  16. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    No, but last summer the Portland PD attempted to use a dedicated beanbagger.. it was painted/annodized a different color (blue I think).. anyway, "they" accidentally buckshot a soul with multiple rounds at close range. He lived.
     
  17. gym

    gym member

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    The carbine can get more rounds down range faster and further. As far a the wide birth of the shotgun goes, it's limited to under 100 yards, after that, it's not likelly one or two pellets are going to do much.Maybe for CQB or breeching a door they are more useful, but as an all around weapon I would rather have a hundred rounds of 556 on my person.
    Especially if you have to make an accurate shot from distance.
    I guess both would be best.
     
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Yikes. I was going to suggest that most less-lethal shotguns are set up like Simunitions guns to only be used with less lethal ammo...but I guess sometimes they aren't. :uhoh:
     
  19. gym

    gym member

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    Last time i saw a bean bag round other than the "steve mcqueen" movie, "hunter", was in the ATF show "like cops", on TV
     
  20. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    We use shotguns and rifles in my department. Some officers choose to carry a shotgun, some carry a rifle. A shotgun is a devastatingly effective weapon, but I carry the rifle since I consider it to be more versatile.

    A Taser is merely a sometimes-effective less lethal force option, and has no bearing on any reasonable discussion of firearms choices for law enforcement.
     
  21. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    The writing on the wall about shotguns was pretty clear more than 20 years ago. I was the guy in charge of training on a 100 man department down here in paradise for three years in the late eighties/early nineties era and was sad to see it coming.... In short with more and more officers of "lesser stature" (females for any former marines....) along with greater numbers of ordinary police recruits without the slightest weapons background, shotguns became less and less attractive overall for police managers.... Some of that may have changed with the great numbers of combat veterans for police work... but the trend before 9-11 was clearly away from shotguns.

    As a guy who preferred the shotgun over anything else in close quarter confrontations (under fifty meters, even better in less than 25 meters conflicts..) I disagree with the trend but it's just a natural evolution, I'm afraid. Out in open country, away from urban environments the patrol rifle is clearly superior - but that's not where my career was at all. I believe a competent shotgunner actually reduces the actual use of force in confrontations with armed or possibly armed individuals... since that was my experience (and I always brought a shotgun to the party without fail...).

    By the way, every time I see one of those "tactical shotguns" I just try not to laugh. A competent 'gunner with a simple Wingmaster Police model without any mag extension or fancy sights is a terrible opponent and usually more than a match for any two offenders...
     
  22. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    Welcome to the age of the reduced load. No pun intended, of course.
     
  23. RetDep310

    RetDep310 Member

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    I attended my former department's firearms qualification last year for my LEOSA certification. After the qualification, one of the instructors showed the result of a test he conducted on several sheets of wallboard, placed a few inches behind one another. The issued 9mm, 00 Buck and slugs penetrated several layers of the wall board. The 223 only penetrated a couple of layers, it's energy quickly being dumped. They still issue shotguns, along with the AR's, but after that little demonstration, I soon got rid of my personal shotgun, and got an AR. Not saying it's best, but works for me.
     
  24. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    After that big shoot out in Hollywood with those bank robbers wearing body armor, Police started issuing Carbines considering how the Police were running to gunshops to get rifles to even the odds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  25. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Ever car in our fleet has a shotgun in a rack. Every patrol officer has a Tazer on their belt. Our bean bag guns are just a standard 870 with an orange stock and special rounds. I check out a bean bag gun at the beginning of every shift. Myself and many officers also have personal ARs in the car.

    Our swat team has used the shotgun Tazer rounds in the past. I believe they are sometimes, but not always, effective, much like the handheld variety.

    A lot of people think carbines are overkill or are for mass shooting scenarios. I've had several people say "you are a cop, not in the army!" Almost once a month we have some crazy person shooting a handgun in their house or front yard. These people are literally crazy. A lot of them probably don't mean harm, they just don't know what is going on. Your best bet in that situation is find cover and stay at a distance. A carbine allows you to stay 75 yards away, call in someone to negotiate, and still be ready to end the threat if necessary. If someone can get close while still behind cover, the bean bag rounds can effectively end the threat as well, but we never use it without lethal cover set up in case the rounds are ineffective.

    All that said, I can't think of a time when I would reach for a standard shotgun.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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