Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Are Pistol Caliber Carbines relevant these days?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Panzercat, Mar 17, 2013.

?

Are pistol caliber carbines relevant?

Poll closed Apr 2, 2013.
  1. Yes; It's the right tool for the right job.

    234 vote(s)
    82.7%
  2. No; There's a better tool no matter what the job.

    49 vote(s)
    17.3%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Panzercat

    Panzercat Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    971
    Well, are they? The last thread along these lines had varying opinions back and forth concerning their place in the world of modern firearms, varying from cheap and efficient to being vastly outclassed by rifle caliber carbines, such as the 5.56. Is the pistol caliber carbine a dead end? Does it have a place in your world? Autoloaders? Leverguns?

    The floor is yours.

    *This thread is here and not there per mod preference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  2. Revoliver

    Revoliver Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    304
    Location:
    USofA
    I believe they have a place in the world. I like the ability to consolidate ammo down to one type for multiple guns and for some rounds such as the .357mag (or .44 mag) a longer barrel from the carbine provides much greater performance from the round. These are reasons why I got a 77/357 in addition to my GP100.
     
  3. dmazur

    dmazur Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Similar to above, except I got a 77/44 to go with my .44 Super Blackhawk.
     
  4. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2011
    Messages:
    3,988
    Location:
    Southeast Texas
    I have also found that a 9mm AR recoils less than a 5.56mm AR...but not by much

    For stepping a new shooter up from a .22, it is a good stepping stone, and it is just fun :D

    As far as defensive use? I would prefer to have a carbine length 5.56x45mm AR than a PCC.
     
  5. Inebriated

    Inebriated Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,683
    Location:
    NC
    They are not useless, but there's always something that does "it" better.

    The only advantage is ammo consolidation. Outside of that, it's hard to justify not going with a rifle cartridge.

    I won't be giving my 9mm PCC up, though. :)
     
  6. flipajig

    flipajig Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    848
    Location:
    Gods coununtry. IDAHO.
    There will always be a better tool for the job. But when you start talking ballistics a 240 grain cast SWC running 1600 fps is something to recon with. Same thing with a 357 mag a 158 grain SWC running at 1800 fps. You also take a 9 mm 125 grain RNFP at 1300 fps anything inside 100 yds I wouldn't want to mess with it.
    Flip
     
  7. MrCleanOK

    MrCleanOK Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Alaska
    In addition to ammo consolidation, some states have hunting laws that make pistol caliber carbines desireable. Indiana is one of them.
     
  8. Auto426

    Auto426 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    I think they still have their place in the world. Some like the idea of having a long gun and handgun that share the same ammo and in some cases the same magazines. However an AR is about the same size and weight as most of the more modern PCC's but with much better ballistics and a much wider variety of parts of an accessories. For must uses, the AR makes more sense, but that doesn't make PCC's useless.
     
  9. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,218
    Location:
    Brandon, Florida
    They have their use, but short rifles have overtaken them for most.
    I think the purposes would still be more obvious for an LEO or military standpoint.
    If you want something with a suppressor on it, well, 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 or x51 are suddenly a lot less effective when you crank them down subsonic. Suddenly that 147gr 9mm is looking pretty good again.
     
  10. Girodin

    Girodin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,564
    They have a place, that is clear by the fact that a lot of them are still made and sold. The question might be asked, what is their place.

    For law enforcement/Military/defensive use sub guns have been on the decline for a reason. Small light carbines in rifle calibers have made significant inroads. PDW class weapons have taken over in some places where sub guns were used. However, Sig designed and produced the MPX with a belief there is still a market for a gun using pistol calibers.

    For the 30 cal guns it is going to largely be an issue of bullet construction. Traditionally 30 cal bullets have not been designed to function at sub sonic velocities. However, with the popularity of the 300 BLK that is starting to change. As more bullets are designed to perform at subsonic speeds the 300 blk and others will really outshine the 147 grain 9x19s. Up until very recently I have argued for any use where terminal ballistics matters that the 9x19 is perhaps a better choice. That is starting to change.

    As mentioned they make sense for hunting where restrictions limit you. That said I'd take a 458 SOCOM in IN please. It meets the legal requirements there.

    Some of them have a place in some forms of competition shooting such as cowboy action shooting.

    Mostly I think PCC make sense as fun guns. That is why I have mine and why I am likely to buy any others in the future. I could use them for defensive use, or hunting, but I have rifles that better serve those roles.
     
  11. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,126
    A carabine chambered for handgun cartridge makes very little sense. I found nice semi-auto 7,62x35mm, but can't buy it because I can find no ammo for it. That brings tears to my eyes as with 200+gr slugs it could replace my shotgun for HD duties.
     
  12. Jason_W

    Jason_W Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,860
    Location:
    Valley of Stucco and Sadness, CA
    From a handloader's perspective, pistol cal carbines make a lot of sense. Straight-walled rounds are a lot faster and easier to load than bottleneck cases. Pistol rounds also typically eat a lot less powder than even the .223.

    Additionally, for pistol cal leverguns, I can save even more money by casting my own bullets. I'm pretty sure that home cast bullets could also be employed in a semi-auto pistol cal carbine as long as what a simple blowback operated system. I could be wrong on that last part.
     
  13. Hokkmike

    Hokkmike Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2,373
    Location:
    Sullivan County PA
    Simply stated if it is what you like then it is relevant.
     
  14. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,218
    Location:
    Brandon, Florida
    Oh, yes. Given the opportunity and end purpose to work toward, .300 Blackout would be great. .458 built toward it, .50 if space isn't a concern. De-neck a .308 into a heavy 10mm or something, would make a heck of a great subsonic round. I'd buy one if it took common mags.

    But for price and logistics, it would just be a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to retool to top some 9mm with a 147gr bullet or the like versus stocking an entire new cartridge.

    I would still totally buy a carbine in 10mm or a blown-out .308, though.
     
  15. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    25,165
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    Versatility is my love of the .357 magnum caliber carbine. To 100 yards it's a light .30-30 and, with the switch of a load and an elevation setting, it is a squirrel gun to 50 yards. I originally bought my Rossi 92 25 years ago because I was heavily in to reloading .38 and .357 and wanted a rifle to shoot them. I've since discovered how useful the gun can really be. It's sorta like the dual sport motorcycle. Your gold wing can't ride off road, but your KLR Kawasaki can and, while it's no gold wing, you can ride it to Alaska and back. It's not a CRF450F off road and it's not a gold wing on a trip, but it CAN do both.

    11hwbif.jpg
     
  16. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    25,165
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    BTW, I don't own nor do I want an AR. No zombies on my land and my .308 Remington M7 or my old Remington 722 short action in .257 roberts or my Savage in 7mm remington magnum is a better hunting rifle. Frankly, my Rossi 92 is preferable for its handling characteristic and I'd rather use .357 magnum on deer than .223 to 100 yards, more bullet and no need for some magic controlled expansion bullet. a heavy SWC cast in my shop does the trick. :D

    True that, and I've been handloading for 50 years. Progressives can crank out the rounds and straight walled pistol cases work so much better when you can use a carbide sizer die, don't have to lube cases or trim cases. I cast a very accurate 105 SWC in .358" that I push to 900 fps with a very economical 2.3 grains of B'Eye, very economical plinker when it's hard to find .22LR on the shelves ANYwhere. I push a 165 grain gas checked Keith style SWC to nearly 1900 fps with Lil' Gun, pretty impressive and has impressed the heck out of a deer and a few hogs over the years. :D I think of it as a slightly downloaded .35 Remington. All this from the same rifle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  17. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    4,000
    Location:
    Illinois
    You take something like the Underwood +P+ loading of the 147gr Gold Dot - that's going to put a 12" deep .75" diameter hole in someone.

    I think that's better than 5.56 IMO.

    The other advantage that IMO a 9mm or 45 ACP carbine has over a rifle cartridge is that the bullet is going to drop off substantially after 100 yards and a rifle bullet is going to keep zipping along - something I thought about when the NYPD unleased 84 bullets ata suspect and only hit him 14 times (and he lived)

    http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...5-NY-cops-fire-84-shots-at-suspect-who-lives/

    So sometimes, in certain situations the PCC carbine is the better tool for the job.
     
  18. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    12,738
    Location:
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    FOR ME, there is not a single job I would do with a pistol-caliber carbine that I wouldn't rather use a 5.56 for.

    If you want to have one for fun, whatever, but anything I am actually trying to STOP, I don't want to use a pistol cartridge for it if I don't have to. Old lever guns in .357 and .44 are more overlapping into that range.
     
  19. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,046
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Less sound and flash is definitely advantageous for home defense.

    For stealth military applications pistol caliber carbines have a huge advantage over 5.56 when suppressed.
     
  20. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    25,165
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    If you want a deadly SERIOUS NEW lever gun in a pistol round, this one would even make sense in brown bear country. It even comes in a stainless version for rough climates. .454 Casull is a serious revolver round making around 1800 ft lbs out of a 7" barrel. It makes a lot more out of a rifle, rivals the .45-70, I mean, if it's POWER you want. .223 is a great prairie dog round, but I'd rather have a .220 swift. I sure wouldn't wanna PO a bear with one. :rolleyes:

    http://www.rossiusa.com/product-details.cfm?id=159

    R92-532011.jpg
     
  21. Ramone

    Ramone Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    748
    Location:
    Tidewater VA
    I tend to think of a PPC as a "Pistol Plus", rather than a "Rifle Minus"...

    even an inexperienced shooter is going to be more accurate with a longer barrel/sight radius/gripping surface than with a pistol, and far less likely to shoot themselves in the foot (or me in the back!). If a situation should come to a struggle for control of the weapon, it's far easier to keep the muzzle away from one's self with the longer carbine.

    A longer barrel both enhances the ballistics and reduces flash and blast (try subsonic 9mm out of a 16" barrel- you'll swear it was a squib). It works around confined spaces almost as well as a pistol.

    For younger shooters, a centerfire caliber is more 'like a real rifle' than a .22LR (paraphrasing my 8 YO Niece), but still easily managed in terms of weight and recoil- and in 9MM, it's the next cheapest round to .22LR.
     
  22. wlewisiii

    wlewisiii Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,649
    Location:
    Hayward, WI
    They're fine as toys. I include all firearms for games like SASS in with the toys as well.

    As tools? There is always something better.
     
  23. CZ223

    CZ223 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,672
    Yes yes yes

    Those cowboys were onto something way back in the day. Having a handgun, or two, in the same caliber as your rifle makes a lot of sense. Commonality of ammo still makes sense to this day. As someone said earlier, it is even better if you have commonality of magazines. This is not a problem with lever rifles and revolvers of course. The lever actions and revolvers also have an advantage in power in that they are chambered for more powerful loads than most bottom feeding pistols and rifles. I would feel well armed with a rifle/pistol combo in 45 Colt, 44 Mag 357 mag and even perhaps 32 Mag. A lot of you forgot about that last one I will bet. Another advantage to all of the above combinations is that most, if not all of them will digest a second type of ammo. The 44 mag will also eat 44 specials, the 357 mag will digest 38 specials and, the 32 mag will feed 32 long. Some 45 colts can also manage with 45 Schofield. Even in this time of ammo shortages I regularly run across all the above cartridges, though some of them are quite expensive.

    As for semi-autos with detachable magazines, the biggest problem I see with them is the selection of guns available. I would love to have a carbine that would take the same magazines as my Glocks but I can't force myself to buy a Kel-Tec. The just right carbine got my attention but to say that the reviews are mixed is putting it mildly. I always had a problem with the Mech-tech conversion because I would have to dedicate one of my pistol frames but they are a good unit. There are some good rifles out there like the Ruger PC9/40 and the Berretta but since I have never owned any of their hand guns I have held off for something better to come along. The Biggest problem that I have with all of the guns that I just mentioned is that none of them are chambered in 10mm or 357 Sig. These are the two calibers that I consider most viable as a rifle round. HK did or does make a rifle in 10 mm but I doubt that I will ever be able to afford one, especially now.

    With all that said, what do I think their role is or could be? Personally, because of where I live and the situations that I am like to encounter, I feel that they could serve a dual role as a Personal defense weapon and for hunting. I also think they would be well suited for law enforcement in a close quarters environment. The biggest issue for me is still the cartridges that they are chambered in. A 10mm carbine would equal or come close to equaling the power of a 44 mag carbine and a carbine in 357 Sig would pretty much duplicate the ballistics of some 357 mag rounds out of a carbine. That would make them very viable for hunting and for reaching out to further distances than a 45, 40 or 9mm carbine.
     
  24. jim243

    jim243 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,992
    Best way to put it is "Depending on what you are doing with it".

    For hunting, yes there are better tools. For pratice and just general shooting for fun, no it is the best tool, or at least a very good tool.

    As a reloader I can produce 4 to 5 times the number of pistol rounds than I can rifle rounds, less case preperation, less work, less time, less powder. Does that relate to more time shooting, YES.

    It is an excelent tool for sharpening your marksman skills with. Would I use one for hunting, within 100 yards, yes, I would have no problem with that. Would I do it on a regular basis, no I would stick to my 35 Remington or 270 Winchester. For rabbit, no there wouldn't be enough of it to eat. (messy, messy)

    Since I am not a war with any country or live in a zombie zone and have what I consider better tools for personal and home defense, it becomes a non-issue as to it's use for that.

    They are fun to shoot, more challenging that a 22 LR and have their place in the overall scheme of things.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  25. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    25,165
    Location:
    The end of the road between Sodom and Gomorrah Tex
    I've shot more'n one rabbit with a .38 wadcutter. My 105 SWC at 900 fps MV does a pretty good job of playing reloadable rimfire. :D It don't make a mess, but it does the job better than a .22 solid. I'd think a FMJ 9 or even a FMJ .45 wouldn't be that destructive, though I've not shot a rabbit with a 9 or .45acp.

    +1. Around the house or on the street, I carry a handgun. Fits my pocket better than a rifle. Long gun for the house, I keep a shotgun handy in the bedroom. Inside 25 yards, buckshot is good 'nuf. I can't kill a man at 300 with it, sure nuf, but I have a feeling that if I did, I might be in some deep do do with the law. At self defense ranges, I'd rather have a shotgun and my handgun is always with me. All this talk about killing people on this thread, I wonder how many of you have killed a man with your AR, not a gubment issue M4 or M16, YOUR AR?

    And, PS, zombies are a myth. Even sasquatch has a better chance of being real. There are some swat types that need an M4, usually issued to them. They go around busing up penny ante poker games now days, I understand. At the risk of being political, I think there's too much swat going on now days and now I'm going to have to watch the sky for drones? The gubment wants ya, I guess you're dead.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page