Dogbite
Member
Yes, good quality semi-auto pistols are extremely reliable, with premium ammunition. I have carried semi-auto pistols a bunch, and revolvers a bunch.
Are Semi-Automatics Reliable Enough to Carry?
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Hawk
Member
My wild guess is that the poster is using "bottom feeder" in the vernacular to indicate "bottom shelf", "dregs", "not best of breed" - that sort of thing.
Bear in mind that semi-autos feed from the TOP of a magazine.
"Bottom feeder" used to refer to all semi-autos is one of those "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" clichés that are liberally sprinkled throughout "versus" threads - it's never corrected as it's mildly witty and not particularly offensive.
But it's still dead wrong.
I suppose a case could be made for a converted Sten being a bottom feeder but most all semi-autos will continue to feed from the top.
I believe you may have confused a mild pejorative with an actual factual description - the later can be rather rare in "versus" threads.
Semi-autos are actually top feeders but where's the fun in that?
gyvel
Member
Can be, but usually aren't.
Have you seen a revolver in a LEO's holster lately?
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LE agencies have adopted semi-autos as it is easier to develop a adequate level of expertise. A DA revolver trigger pull is harder to master. There is also the capacity question. Having more ammo makes people feel better.
Back to the original question.
Comparing modern quality revolvers to their kind in the semi-auto world, I would give revolvers a very slight edge. Put up against certain semi-autos (Glock for one) they are equal or the auto may have a slight edge.
I don't feel undergunned or less capable carrying either.
I think some unreliability with semi-autos is induced by the owner. One example is swapping recoil springs in a 1911. 16 pound was what Browning designed it with. Don't you think he thought that out? That's a topic for another thread though.
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LE agencies have adopted semi-autos as it is easier to develop a adequate level of expertise. A DA revolver trigger pull is harder to master. There is also the capacity question. Having more ammo makes people feel better.
Back to the original question.
Comparing modern quality revolvers to their kind in the semi-auto world, I would give revolvers a very slight edge. Put up against certain semi-autos (Glock for one) they are equal or the auto may have a slight edge.
I don't feel undergunned or less capable carrying either.
I think some unreliability with semi-autos is induced by the owner. One example is swapping recoil springs in a 1911. 16 pound was what Browning designed it with. Don't you think he thought that out? That's a topic for another thread though.
mustang_steve
Member
Take care of your semi-auto, and it will take care of you.
I recommend using the factory recommended ammo (NO RELOADS) and a lightly-used magazine for SD. Use the beater mags and alternate ammunitions for the range.
Reason for this is the pistol was designed around that ammunition, thus should operate in the ideal fashion with it. The lightly used magazines is because I do not trust unused equipment...I would use that magazine about 10 times at a range to verify it works, then use it.
Keep the mags clean, use good conditioned ammo (not some corroded junk), and make sure the feed ramp, extractor and the bore are mechanically sound. As in no debris fused to the inside of the bore, the extractor should be looking more new than worn and the feed ramp needs to offer a smooth loading action. If it's got all of this, it will function as expected, when expected.
I recommend using the factory recommended ammo (NO RELOADS) and a lightly-used magazine for SD. Use the beater mags and alternate ammunitions for the range.
Reason for this is the pistol was designed around that ammunition, thus should operate in the ideal fashion with it. The lightly used magazines is because I do not trust unused equipment...I would use that magazine about 10 times at a range to verify it works, then use it.
Keep the mags clean, use good conditioned ammo (not some corroded junk), and make sure the feed ramp, extractor and the bore are mechanically sound. As in no debris fused to the inside of the bore, the extractor should be looking more new than worn and the feed ramp needs to offer a smooth loading action. If it's got all of this, it will function as expected, when expected.
Redneck with a 40
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uh....yeah! I've got over 3500 rounds out of my XD-40, FMJ and JHP, it hasn't choked yet. I have very high confidence in this pistol.
I never had any malfunctions in my Glock 23, except with one +2 magazine.
The truth is, while revolvers can indeed be chambered for more powerful rounds, overall, semi-automatics are stronger. If you slammed a 1911 or Glock against a wall, you might mar the finish and damage the sights, but you could almost certainly pick it right back up and safely shoot it.
If you did the same thing with a service-sized revolver, you would probably knock it out of time. Shooting it would then be dangerous.
A friend of mine and I went on a S&W .41 Magnum kick some years ago. I bought, and he traded me for, a beautiful S-prefix model 57, which looked gently used, at most.
When he fired the 57, it was just enough out of time that he suffered some small burns to his face. Fortunately, he was wearing shooting glasses.
When it comes to fighting, I'd take something like a Glock 19 or 23, or a Taurus or Beretta 92, over any wheelgun. In fact, if I could only have one handgun to do all the various missions a handgun might be called upon to perform, a Glock 23 might well be my first choice.
That said, I'm down to a stable of 5 handguns I use. A compact and full-size double-stack 1911, and Smith J, K, and N frames.
John
The truth is, while revolvers can indeed be chambered for more powerful rounds, overall, semi-automatics are stronger. If you slammed a 1911 or Glock against a wall, you might mar the finish and damage the sights, but you could almost certainly pick it right back up and safely shoot it.
If you did the same thing with a service-sized revolver, you would probably knock it out of time. Shooting it would then be dangerous.
A friend of mine and I went on a S&W .41 Magnum kick some years ago. I bought, and he traded me for, a beautiful S-prefix model 57, which looked gently used, at most.
When he fired the 57, it was just enough out of time that he suffered some small burns to his face. Fortunately, he was wearing shooting glasses.
When it comes to fighting, I'd take something like a Glock 19 or 23, or a Taurus or Beretta 92, over any wheelgun. In fact, if I could only have one handgun to do all the various missions a handgun might be called upon to perform, a Glock 23 might well be my first choice.
That said, I'm down to a stable of 5 handguns I use. A compact and full-size double-stack 1911, and Smith J, K, and N frames.
John
kd7nqb
Member
Semi autos have been tested re-tested and over tested that the reliability issue has been essentially eliminated assuming that you put quality ammo and any parts you change are quality. The old crap in crap out theory.
That being said if I were in an environment where I expected large amounts of dust/ dirt or bugs so thick they would cake onto the gun and I was carrying openly then I might very well choose a revolver since there is less of a chance of an important function being stopped by debris.
That being said if I were in an environment where I expected large amounts of dust/ dirt or bugs so thick they would cake onto the gun and I was carrying openly then I might very well choose a revolver since there is less of a chance of an important function being stopped by debris.
armsmaster270
Member
"If you can't end the situation with 6 shots i don't think 15 will make any difference."
As long as you don't get into a shooting situation like the North Hollywood bank robbery. However you have to plan on the worse case scenario. I carry a Sig 226 in .357Sig and a S&W 340pd as backup. Any quality semi Auto or Revolver can be reliable if fed the proper quality ammo.
As long as you don't get into a shooting situation like the North Hollywood bank robbery. However you have to plan on the worse case scenario. I carry a Sig 226 in .357Sig and a S&W 340pd as backup. Any quality semi Auto or Revolver can be reliable if fed the proper quality ammo.
Riss
Member
Hell yeah. I have had no weapon induced failures in over 6000 rounds with my Glock 35. It is slightly modified, but runs great. Only malfunctions have been from me not reloading properly.
Oh- and I've had malfunctions in quality revolvers, too- and I baby them much more than my autos. True, usually pulling the trigger again will get a "bang"- but then, you have a max of 5 left from most wheelies, and even less in some, like my 642...
Cayoot
Member
Ask the soldiers in vietnam who were the first ones to be issued the M-16 about that theory. In fact, when we were issued the M-16 in the early 1980's, it still wasn't all that reliable.
All that aside, you must remember that the military issues ball ammo for the side arm. Ball ammo is the most reliable feeder and the most unreliable man stopper.
I don't think many civilians would choose to carry ball ammo in their carry weapons.
Cayoot
Member
While I believe revolvers are inherently more reliable than autos (I often hear auto guys say something like "my auto has fired X thousand rounds without any failures except fill in the blank here). However I feel that semi autos can be reliable enough with proper ammo and maintance. The important thing for semi-auto shooters to do is to burn the old "Tap-Rack-Bang" routine into your muscle memory to the point that when the gun fails to go "Bang", without even thinking, you have done the "Tap-Rack-Bang" drill and you will be back in action. It only takes a split second for someone who is well practiced.
In our I.D.P.A. club, we haven't seen a revolver failure in years, but every week we see an auto failure. However, if the auto shooter is skilled, he/she doesn't miss a beat...just Tap-Rack-Bang and they are back in action so fast that, if you weren't paying attention, you would never have known that they had a malfunction.
The modern semi-auto is more sophisticated than the modern revolver...thus requires a more sophisticated level of training to use effectively.
I carry a revolver...I keep wanting to buy a semi-auto, but in the back of my mind is that I want to be able to hand all of my guns down to my grand kids when I pass (hopefully many years from now). So in the back of my mind is always the question..."If I buy this semi now and want to pass it down to my grandchildren in 40 years...do I need to buy extra mag springs and recoil springs and mag followers etc?
I know that if I load my S&W 686 now and put it in a nightstand drawer; then don't touch it for 40 years. It will probably still fire perfectly (barring fire/flood etc) just like today.
However I worry about semi autos because so many springs must remain under pressure all that time for the gun to be always ready.
Of course this is only my $.02...which after inflation is really only worth about $.000378.
In our I.D.P.A. club, we haven't seen a revolver failure in years, but every week we see an auto failure. However, if the auto shooter is skilled, he/she doesn't miss a beat...just Tap-Rack-Bang and they are back in action so fast that, if you weren't paying attention, you would never have known that they had a malfunction.
The modern semi-auto is more sophisticated than the modern revolver...thus requires a more sophisticated level of training to use effectively.
I carry a revolver...I keep wanting to buy a semi-auto, but in the back of my mind is that I want to be able to hand all of my guns down to my grand kids when I pass (hopefully many years from now). So in the back of my mind is always the question..."If I buy this semi now and want to pass it down to my grandchildren in 40 years...do I need to buy extra mag springs and recoil springs and mag followers etc?
I know that if I load my S&W 686 now and put it in a nightstand drawer; then don't touch it for 40 years. It will probably still fire perfectly (barring fire/flood etc) just like today.
However I worry about semi autos because so many springs must remain under pressure all that time for the gun to be always ready.
Of course this is only my $.02...which after inflation is really only worth about $.000378.
mustang_steve
Member
Yep, my semi is considered "unreliable" and "crap" by web consensus, and 450rds, one FTF, it was a sideways primer in factory ammo, thus not attributable to the pistol. I actually found it to be very accurate and unqestionably reliable.
Springs won't wear out for being under tension, it's movement of the springs that wears them out. Basic metals knowledge there.
We owe it to ourselves to understand how our firearms work, how the materials play into it and the theories behind them.
Springs won't wear out for being under tension, it's movement of the springs that wears them out. Basic metals knowledge there.
We owe it to ourselves to understand how our firearms work, how the materials play into it and the theories behind them.
Cayoot
Member
I have heard that many times, but what I don't get is why that statement doesn't apply to the main spring?
The hammer/striker is cycled many more times than any magazine, yet hardly ever do I hear of a main spring for the hammer or striker going bad. That goes for both autos and revolvers.
I have heard of magazine springs going weak and not providing proper function though.
NMGonzo
Member
Yes they are.
Buy a nice one that makes big holes.
Dont' pay too little for it, don't pay too much for it.
Buy a nice one that makes big holes.
Dont' pay too little for it, don't pay too much for it.
Vern Humphrey
Member
For one thing, the hammer spring is very short-stroke. Magazine and recoil springs have long strokes, and are the ones replaced most often.
I did once, however, get a very good deal on an M1922 Springfield because it's striker spring had failed. I took a standard M1903 spring, cut off a couple of coils and the old rifle is a tack-driver.
mustang_steve
Member
Less movement, less extreme movement will both result in lower wear. The bending is altering the internal bonds within the metal, but steel is a relatively elastic metal. So long as it's threshold is not exceeded, it will not distort. The further from that threshold a motion is, the less impact it will have on the lifespan of the part.
Aluminum has no such threshold, thus any force applied to it will reduce it's strength until it fails. Given some aluminum alloys are very durable...but they will eventually fail, and earlier than a steel component would.
Hawk
Member
Ah yes, the time-honored "ceptin'for". While I tend to agree with your observation, I've noticed it on both sides of the fence. My wheelgun has been 100%...
ceptin for when I forgot to thread lock the strain screw.
ceptin for when I used CCI primers / S&B / Fiocchi.
ceptin for the times before I installed the extended travel firing pin.
ceptin for when I tried to run my newer x25 without clips.
At the risk of gross oversimplification and stereotyping, if one really appreciates his weapon he'll blame himself for failure to thread lock or overlook a little file work in the slide notch - but if it's an employer issued polymer handgun and you tell the owner it's his fault for not re-torquing and thread locking the fasteners, he'll look at you like you have three heads.
There are few internet truisms I subscribe to. One of them is "if you haven't had a failure, you haven't shot it enough". That one I accept as the given word.
Really? Or do you just mean until you have to reload? You really think reloading a modern autoloader requires "more sophistication"?!
Personally, I think it's mostly experts who show up at good gun schools with wheelguns, because they require a higher level of skill to run effectively under pressure...
J
Cayoot
Member
I was talking about the need to incorporate failure drills (i.e. "Tap-Rack-Bang" drills)...that was the whole point of my tirade...wow, talk about pulling a sentence out of context!
Ok... I haven't read the thread so I'm sure others have probably already said this but:
For every 1 highly reliable auto loader I've seen, I've probably seen 2 that aren't reliable. This is obviously just reflective of my experience.
Here's what I don't like about auto loaders.... They are a pain in the !@#$ to live with.
No matter what anyone tells me, I'm not inclined to believe that removing a chambered round is a safe operation. It's not even a graceful operation in most cases. Once the round is ejected it then has to be managed, both short term and longer term. Magazines must be managed. Springs need more attention then with their counterparts. Besides the ejected round, ammo in general requires a lot more attention and expense. It's just too much!!! TOO MUCH I TELL YA!!!! :banghead:
I have only one auto loader, a S&W 1911. It will run anything, all the time. I haven't cleaned it close to a 1,000 rounds and haven't had a single malfunction in well over 3,000. I have it "for" when I know I'm going into a bad situation with potentially multiple adversaries. As such, it gets used very seldom (for that purpose).
Me, I can't live with an auto loader as an edc. They're just too high maintenance.
For every 1 highly reliable auto loader I've seen, I've probably seen 2 that aren't reliable. This is obviously just reflective of my experience.
Here's what I don't like about auto loaders.... They are a pain in the !@#$ to live with.
No matter what anyone tells me, I'm not inclined to believe that removing a chambered round is a safe operation. It's not even a graceful operation in most cases. Once the round is ejected it then has to be managed, both short term and longer term. Magazines must be managed. Springs need more attention then with their counterparts. Besides the ejected round, ammo in general requires a lot more attention and expense. It's just too much!!! TOO MUCH I TELL YA!!!! :banghead:
I have only one auto loader, a S&W 1911. It will run anything, all the time. I haven't cleaned it close to a 1,000 rounds and haven't had a single malfunction in well over 3,000. I have it "for" when I know I'm going into a bad situation with potentially multiple adversaries. As such, it gets used very seldom (for that purpose
). Me, I can't live with an auto loader as an edc. They're just too high maintenance.
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