Are the DA/SA pistols staging a comeback??

Well, you blew that one right past me. Perhaps you could state your point non-ironically for the dimwitted (like me)?

 

Ok then which of the two is more important force or distance?

 

Weight, length of pull, and you get to watch the hammer coming back.

 

Per Ernest Langdon, it's the length of the trigger travel.

See this video, you can start around the 2:15 point if you want to skip ahead.

 

And Darryl Bolke on the LEM trigger from HK

https://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

 

Its both weight and length of travel. The long steady pull of most DA make it very difficult to have a ND or AD. I would love if someone more technically savvy than I could find a chart on LEO AD/ND comparing DA/SA and striker fired. That would end that debates right there.

 

Just a single data point, but the LA County Sheriff Office showed a 500% increase in accidental gun shots after switching from the Beretta 92FS to the S&W M&P.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...gun-accidental-discharges-20151216-story.html

Admittedly, the numbers are very low and any increase would show a large percentage.

 

Speaking of AD/NDs, just a reminder fellas. DOUBLE, TRIPLE, QUADRUPLE check your firearms when cleaning! I work at a trauma center and had a person come in as a trauma because he shot himself in the leg while cleaning his gun. Very lucky he didn't hit anything vital. I know we all say that would never happen to us well I bet he used to say that also. Drop mag, rack the slide, rack again, rack again, visually inspect, then physically inspect chamber. Don't want this to happen to you or me.

 

It also doesn't help the situation if you have to pull the trigger to disassemble your guns.

I often wonder if people that shoot themselves while cleaning or disassembling their guns, upon further review think that maybe that magazine disconnect on the Browning Hi-Power and the old S&W TDA auto may not be such a bad idea.

 

The only reason I use that term is because it's the proper term used by both S&W and SIG in their armorer classes.

I often use the acronym TDA instead of DA/SA, not only because it's more accurate, but it's shorter to type. I'll use the more common DA/SA in forums, to make it easier for hobbyists and enthusiasts to understand, but I usually try to inject TDA at some point, just to clarify terms.

In a way, using DA/SA to describe these type of pistols is like people calling magazines clips.

Doesn't really matter, though, as long as everyone understands what everyone else is discussing. It's not like there's a written test (like at the end of most armorer classes).

 

What term?

Edit to add: I originally thought you listed my quote and were referencing "Transitional Double Action" and "SA/DA" as the proper terms. Then I realized you were the one I originally quoted. As you originally commented...

Traditional Double Action (TDA) and DA/SA are the proper terms.

 

The thing is, most NDs -- with no human injuries or fatalities -- occurring in the law enforcement arena are only investigated internally, if they're investigated at all, and I doubt most agencies report these occurrences to any entity outside themselves. Kudos to LASO for its attempts to self-report and be transparent, but absent an agency's policy or legal requirements to report NDs where no one is injured (other than hurt feelings or leaving a mark in a clearing barrel), it'd be hard to find meaningful statistics on this subject.

I know when we switched from DA/SA pistols to striker-fired guns, we expected an up-tick in NDs. There has been none. One suspects effective training is a key element here.

As far as the OP: I don't think DA/SA pistols are staging a "come-back." They've never been gone; viewing the topic only through the prism of all the law enforcement/military entities that adopted Glocks/M&Ps/SIG P-320s et al (which does tend to create a bit of consumer demand for the commercial versions) kind of skews the perspective. I'd be looking at overall commercial sales of all handguns. Seems SIG, Beretta, H&K, CZ continue to sell an awful lot of hammer-fired semi-autos ...

 

Though you'll notice in the past few years all four of those companies, long know as hammer fired holdouts, have introduced their own polymer striker fired guns. The SIG P320, the Beretta APX, the HK VP9/40, and the CZ P-10.

While I think there is a place for hammer fired TDA pistols, the trend is to striker fired guns.

 

Yes.

If I could steal market share from any of my competitors, I would do it too.

 

Most of those companies have also introduced new hammer-fired models/variants, too.

Of course they want in on the plastic striker-fired marketplace. If you manage to get a decent piece of marketshare, it's extremely profitable (very low production costs) and you get an audience that is mostly composed of people used to spartan levels of fit, finish, and refinement. That crowd will take a total [email protected] trigger and pronounce it "tactical-grade."

I'm kidding, but only sorta.

 

I'm more interested in what works well for my students, family, and friends rather than what seems to be a hot seller NOW. In many cases, a quality firearm is a 20-40 year investment. Trends will vary over that time span, but will the firearm I recommended to a student or friend continue to give good service.

Only a few select firearms have earned my recommendation, most of them classic DA/SA designs like the Beretta 92 and Sig series of DA/SA firearms.

But really, who cares about the popularity contest? Lots of stuff other than quality wins popularity contests.

 

Some dept's are going with 8 lb triggers for their Glocks to limit ND law suits. That's a pretty heavy trigger for a striker.

 

Since about 1990, it seems the key characteristics of a "good trigger" is that is has a tactile and audible reset.

 

Which grows from the absurd notion that shooters working at speed are "riding the reset." Slo-mo video footage of actual fast shooters actually shooting fast makes that claim seem... improbable.

 

Good slow motion video for catching shooting kinematics requires high frame rates. Slowing down 30-60 frames per second misses A LOT. 1000 frames per second and up catches lots of things that even experienced trainers and shooters are not aware of until the video becomes available and shows it time after time.

But even taking and reviewing 30-60 frame per second video can be a useful training tool for lots of shooting kinematics, especially if there is lots of light allowing a fast shutter speed to stop the action each frame even if one is left wishing for more frames in between. One can learn a lot about recoil management and how steady a sight picture really is with 30-60 frames per second with a fast shutter speed. Trigger issues are often more subtle and happen very quickly for the more experienced shooters - they can also be harder to sort out given the bulk motion of the frame.

 

Nothing wrong with a 8# trigger IMO. I am done with light weight striker fired guns. My LC9S is now down to 4.4 lbs. Thankfully I have a safety and have trained for years with one. otherwise it is just unsafe to CCW. Goof article by one of the Pro's about the BS of riding the Trigger Reset. I will find it later. I have a feeling I will be CCW my LCR9mm and Pico. No big deal, that is what I have been doing for a long time now anyway.

 

I'm talking about video that shows shooters' trigger fingers coming off the trigger. Pretty hard to "ride the reset" when your finger is moving forward faster than the trigger! That's what I'm talking about, not trigger control generally or straight-back-ness of input.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Without seeing the video myself, I suspect confirmation bias may be a factor. Many videos simply are not high enough quality to be sure, and one can easily mistake the tip and pad appearing to come off of the front of the trigger (as seen from the left for a right handed shooter) when the finger is still making continuous contact with the right side of the trigger with the part of the index finger closer to the joint. The finger tip can be moving forward faster than the trigger, while the part near the joint remains in continuous contact, "riding the reset."

Yes, there are cases where a shooter's finger comes completely off the trigger and can be seen on video. (These tend to produce longer split times.) But the borderline cases where it is hard to tell are more common.

 

Have you ever tried tapping your finger on your desk or tabletop as fast as you can go? Try it. Now try to keep your finger as close to the tabletop during its travel as you can. The finger doesn't move very far, does it? Now just focus on speed. Increase the rate of tapping to the highest rate you can. Your finger is coming higher off the surface, isn't it?*

Trying to "ride the reset" when shooting fast is like trying to keep your finger close to the tabletop. It seems like it would be faster because it's less travel. But you're actually having to waste time and energy focusing on maintaining contact with the trigger, which means slowing down your finger. It's like accelerating while riding the brakes on your car.

At slower speeds, it doesn't matter a bit, so lots of people ride the reset for slow or medium speed shooting. Which is fine, no harm to it at all. But the case for actually doing it when shooting at speed is not very good; people may feel they are doing it. That's fine. It's not true, but it's fine.

* If you've ever watched someone play the drums, you'll see the same thing. It's very difficult to whip the sticks up and down very fast and keep them very close to the drumhead. It's easier to play loud (to a point) and fast than quiet and fast.

 

I'm pretty sure Rob Leatham is not a "ride the reset" guy. I believe the term for his technique is "flip and press" or "press and flip".

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-training/a-sweeping-trigger-technique/#ixzz3JzNP7nMt