Are there Washington State legal muzzleloaders that will consistently group under 6" at 200 yards?

[Buck13]

By "group" I mean something approaching good statistics, like ten shots, not three! Also meaning the rifle itself, so scoped from a bench would count, even though scopes are illegal in WA.

If not, what's the best you would expect?

 

[.38 Special]

Sure. Any decent target rifle will easily maintain that standard, with iron sights.



Presumably you are talking about hunting, though, and I doubt you'd want to carry such a thing for any distance - the one in the picture is 13 pounds and over four feet long.

The more run-of-the-mill "traditional" muzzleloaders - the $399 "Hawkens" from Midway, etc. - are quite literally hit-or-miss, and you might have to run through several of them before you find one that is reasonably accurate. The open sights, of course, make the task that much harder...

Your best bet may well be one of the higher-end inlines. A thousand+ dollars apparently goes a long way toward buying accuracy. That all is well outside of my experience, though, so I leave this link - https://chuckhawks.com/most_accurate_muzzleloaders.htm - and the warning that 200 yards is a very, very long way to shoot at live animals with a muzzleloader.

 

[LoonWulf]

200 yards is a very, very long way to shoot at live animals with a muzzleloader.

Depends on the muzzleloader.
My savage 10ml2 running smokeless is very capable at 200yds, tho the longest shot ive taken with it was 150ish.
I don't own it for shooting far, nor am i likely to practice with it enough to want to use it that way, but its very capable of it.

The Traditions UL I had before that would hold about 1.5-2" at 100 running 240gr XTP mags at about 1900. You had to clean the gun every shot or two as consistent seating became nearly impossible pretty quickly.

 

[silicosys4]

Model 700 Ultimate | Remington

 

[.38 Special]

Depends on the muzzleloader.
My savage 10ml2 running smokeless is very capable at 200yds, tho the longest shot ive taken with it was 150ish.
I don't own it for shooting far, nor am i likely to practice with it enough to want to use it that way, but its very capable of it.

The Traditions UL I had before that would hold about 1.5-2" at 100 running 240gr XTP mags at about 1900. You had to clean the gun every shot or two as consistent seating became nearly impossible pretty quickly.

I purposely ignored the Savage. Aside from the fact they I don't think any have been made in quite some time, I don't think they are legal in Washington state.

With regard to guns like the Traditions, I consider not only accuracy, but bullet type and speed - and a pistol bullet starting at 1900 fps is going to drop, what, eight or ten inches at 200 yards, and impact at maybe 1200 fps? (I'm going from memory, so if I'm way off, have at me...) So the bullet needs to hit in the right spot - I'm not sure a shoulder shot on a big mulie would actually do the trick here - and range estimation needs to be pretty close. Under field conditions, with iron sights.

Which is not to say it cannot be done, but rather that it needs a knowledgeable and practiced shooter - as opposed to some guy whanging away because he bought an expensive gun and the internet told him it was easy.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

and the warning that 200 yards is a very, very long way to shoot at live animals with a muzzleloader.

For traditional side lock muzzleloaders with open sights, I agree.
With modern muzzleloaders, scoped, 200 yards is nothing.

 

[armoredman]

What are the rules in Washington, for clarity's sake?

 

[.38 Special]

With modern muzzleloaders, scoped, 200 yards is nothing.

I strongly disagree. A handgun bullet is a handgun bullet, and requires careful placement and exacting range estimation. I am horrified to think of the misery inflicted by tyros who went out and bought an inline with the thought that a 200 yard shot was "nothing".

 

[LoonWulf]

I strongly disagree. A handgun bullet is a handgun bullet, and requires careful placement and exacting range estimation. I am horrified to think of the misery inflicted by tyros who went out and bought an inline with the thought that a 200 yard shot was "nothing".

It for sure takes dedication and practice to shoot a relatively loopy gun at ange, especially with iron sight.
Changing bullets dosent change trajectory or drift all that much IME 1800-1900fps with any bullet the average muzzleloader will launch is gonna be 8-12" lower (3" high at 100) and drift a foot or more in heavy wind......its the wind and sights that are thr major issues imo.
As stated my zero was 3" high at 100 and i shot out to about 175 reliably, but again i was using a scope. In very low wind conditions id have taken a shot farther than 200yds had i considered it necessary, but it never came up.
Given a good reciever sight and good lighting, and little or no wind, 175-200 would be a fairly doable shot imo.

 

[armoredman]

I really like my TC Renegade .54, but past 100 yards, probably would not be a good thing for me to try, yet.

 

[Buck13]

What are the rules in Washington, for clarity's sake?

Sorry, I should have provided links. Here's the state's version:

Equipment & Hunting Methods - Washington Hunting

Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game except as described above. Crossbows: It is illegal to hunt big game with a crossbow outside of modern…

www.eregulations.com

and here's a third-party version (scroll way down to Washington, because it's alphabetical):

Muzzleloader regulation breakdown throughout the Western states - laws you need to know // GOHUNT. The Hunting Company

A state by state look at muzzleloader regulations across every Western states. Plus considerations for next muzzleloader that will work for the majority of states

www.gohunt.com

If I'm reading these right, 209 primed guns are allowed? I thought that was not the case, but maybe it's been changed in the last few years. It's been a while since I looked into it.

No scopes, except 1x magnification optics. That's another change I missed. I guess we can have red-dots now, which might help my old eyes...

This is all pretty hypothetical, since I haven't been hunting in decades, but it sometimes crosses my mind.

 

[hawg]

I haven't been hunting in decades,

In that case there's no way I'd just take off and go hunting and expect to make a 200 yard shot. A red dot at 200 yards would most like hide the entire deer.

 

[.38 Special]

As someone who has never really been able to warm up to modern inlines - and who isn't a fan of pistol bullets much past 50 yards - I'd strongly consider something like the Pedersoli Whitworth with either a tube sight or a 1x "Malcolm" type scope. The middle rifle in the photo is a good example:



It still would be an unwieldy thing in the field, but the 500+ grain bullet is more than enough for most North American big game, and the rifle is easily accurate enough for 200 yard hunting. Plus, no plastic to offend the gods!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I strongly disagree. A handgun bullet is a handgun bullet, and requires careful placement and exacting range estimation. I am horrified to think of the misery inflicted by tyros who went out and bought an inline with the thought that a 200 yard shot was "nothing".

I agree about handgun bullets. That's why I don't use them in muzzleloaders.
I use bullets appropriate to the task at hand.

We don't disagree about everything. I agree that the long range fad isn't good.
There are videos on YT of someone killing an antelope at over 700 yards with a muzzleloader. I think that's crazy.
But 200 yards is very reasonable with the right tools and plenty of practice. I've killed a doe at 150-175 with 80 grains of loose Pyrodex and a 295 grain hollow point Powerbelt bullet. It performed flawlessly, expanding perfectly and coming to rest against the hide on the off side. The handgun bullets you mentioned may not have given that performance.

I do realize that optics aren't legal where the OP lives and hunts so this conversation probably isn't exactly appropriate for this thread.

 

[silicosys4]

Ya'll are way out of date on what a modern muzzleloader can do.
Check the stats on the remington Ultra.
250 gr. Saboted slug @2400fps.
200 yard ain't what it used to be for muzzleloading.
My buddy just took a nice 5x6 elk @ 240yds with one.
And that's here in Wa.

 

[Patocazador]

Given a good reciever sight and good lighting, and little or no wind, 175-200 would be a fairly doable shot imo.

The peep receiver sight is the answer but, as with everything, practice is needed.

 

[Patocazador]

250 gr. Saboted slug @2400fps.
200 yard ain't what it used to be for muzzleloading.
My buddy just took a nice 5x6 elk @ 240yds with one.
And that's here in Wa.

What was the bullet? For the remaining velocity @ 240 yards, it almost had to be a pistol bullet or a varmint bullet in order to expand at all.

I imagine he was young with eyes that accommodated to the range involved. That makes a huge difference.

 

[LoonWulf]

Out if curiosity, what issue are there with handgun bullets vs performance on game?
I wasnt a fan if the 240XTP Mags and FTXs, because i couldnt get them to expand on most of the shots i took, but i had the same issues with muzzleloader specific bullets also........broadside 50lb goats arnt real good at initiating expansion. The one Deer i took was a neck shot at 12O and obliterated the spine before exiting.
I was gonna switch to the 250 XTPs since they are softer, but swapped out for the Savage before i tried them.

I would expect those bullets to work better on bigger critters.

 

[hawg]

I would suggest a Pedersoli Whitworth with polygonal rifling.

 

[silicosys4]

What was the bullet? For the remaining velocity @ 240 yards, it almost had to be a pistol bullet or a varmint bullet in order to expand at all.

I imagine he was young with eyes that accommodated to the range involved. That makes a huge difference.

There have been dedicated saboted ML projectiles specifically designed for this application available for years now.

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If people can ring steel at 1000 yards with a BP Sharp's rifle,
Why would you think a person couldn't do 6" @ 200 yds with modern tech?

 

[LoonWulf]

In that case there's no way I'd just take off and go hunting and expect to make a 200 yard shot. A red dot at 200 yards would most like hide the entire deer.

1-3 moa dots are easily useable at 200yds, i run a 3moa on my 30-30 and shoot plates well past that.
There are also 1x scopes and prisms that would be legal.
Again shooter has to be very familiar with their equipment and (imo) animals being hunted, when considering the environmental effects and time in flight, but the equipment is capable.

 

[alsaqr]

The mark of a hunter is not in sniping at animals at long range.

The mark of a hunter is in shortening the range.

i saw this hog about 80 yards distance. Got down, snooped and crawled to within 25 yards and put a round ball in the hogs ear. i was 83 years old at the time.

You can do this stuff.

 

[Patocazador]

There have been dedicated saboted ML projectiles specifically designed for this application available for years now.

So, my original question: what was the bullet used?

 

[.38 Special]

Out if curiosity, what issue are there with handgun bullets vs performance on game?
I wasnt a fan if the 240XTP Mags and FTXs, because i couldnt get them to expand on most of the shots i took, but i had the same issues with muzzleloader specific bullets also........broadside 50lb goats arnt real good at initiating expansion. The one Deer i took was a neck shot at 12O and obliterated the spine before exiting.
I was gonna switch to the 250 XTPs since they are softer, but swapped out for the Savage before i tried them.

I would expect those bullets to work better on bigger critters.

I personally like a handgun bullet that doesn't expand, and I look to break at least one shoulder. Hollow and soft points are, to me, meant for broadside lung shots, and I find that somewhat limiting. I also much prefer to limit handgun bullets to 50 yards, with 100 being an absolute limit. This is, as noted, due to factors like drop, drift, and TOF - and also that the terrible BC means that they lose speed quickly.

Again, that is not to say that such a bullet fired from a muzzleloader cannot do the job at 200, or even that it is necessarily a bad idea. Rather, it adds another complicating factor to whatever is already a somewhat complicated undertaking, and it should not be done blindly - or ignorantly. (And I am not addressing anyone personally here. I just want it on record that I think a fellow needs a great deal of hands-on experience with this stuff before trying it for real.)

 

[silicosys4]

So, my original question: what was the bullet used?

MonoFlex® ML™ - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

A nontraditional / alternative metal construction bullet option that is a fantastic choice for ALL hunters.

www.hornady.com