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Argentine Mauser 1891 - bolt comparison: regular vs carbine

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by handsonaudio, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    Quick question regarding my Model 1891 Argentine Mauser. It's a pre-1896 model that was sporterized somewhere along the line and in OK condition aesthetically (I cleaned it up, re-blued, re-oiled, but there's some pitting, etc). I need to replace the bolt and was wondering if the regular rifle and carbine bolts are interchangeable. Is the only difference the turned down handle?
     
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  2. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    pictures pictures
     
  3. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Whats wrong with the old bolt? A rifle bolt should interchange, but will likely have headspace issues which arent super easy to correct.
     
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  4. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    Good question, though a headspace issue is exactly what I'm trying to correct. I was just told by my smith today that I'm about .002" past the FIELD spec. For $45 I can get a NOS bolt from Liberty Tree, which is cheap enough for me to take a chance on that fixing my issue.

    As you can see in the photo, the bolt handle is already turned on my sporter and so I thought the carbine version would make a nice replacement if it's interchangeable. If not, I'll just get a straight-handled bolt.
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Pretty sure they are the same. My Dad has several '91 Argentines and I remember playing musical bolts with them when I was a kid.....
     
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  6. Gordon
    • Contributing Member

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    Same and might work if your old bolt had lug set back and that is an as new bolt replacement
     
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  7. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    Good enough for me -- thanks guys.

    I'll let you know how it turns out.
     
  8. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    Compared both a long 1891 Argentine rifle Bolt to a 1891 Argentine carbine bolt.. And they measured out the same. I also swapped out the bolts and both bolts worked in the other rifle.. But I am not a gunsmith.. DSCF8301.JPG DSCF8298.JPG
    DSCF8299.JPG

    Now I have to remember which one goes in which rifle.....: )
     
  9. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    You're awesome, Indy. Thank you for the photos and the effort. That's definitely reassuring.
     
  10. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    if you are buying new bolt, i would like to buy your old one.
     
  11. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    Troy, truthfully I'd be buying just the bolt body and cannibalizing all the other components from my current bolt. Would you still be interested if only the original bolt body is available?
     
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  12. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    that's the only part i need.
     
  13. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    Cool. I'll let you know after I get the new one in and am ready to send the old.
     
  14. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    ok thank's
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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  15. czhen

    czhen Member

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    Please tell your Dad to send you some pics of Argentine Mausers and post them. I have a sweet spot for the carbine length.
     
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  16. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Haha, the idea of him posting anything to the internet is funny. He doesnt even own a cell phone, lol.

    On the other hand, he is getting ready to retire down here soon, so I may be able to snap a few pics as we are unloading his 30-40 Mausers from the Ryder truck.......
     
  17. czhen

    czhen Member

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    Gunny will get jealous.
    An Argy mauser was the first centerfire rifle I shot in my life, I was probably 12 years old or so, and shot in prone at 100 mts.
     
  18. ACES&8S

    ACES&8S Member

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    QUESTION !
    I had a thread on here about when I overhauled my 1891 Mauser, the barrel wouldn't take bluing but the receiver
    did. In fact the barrel had a kind of solid paint that appeared to be bluing at first but came off with standard bluing
    removal kit.
    I had to overhaul it because it had been in a flood years ago & was never more than oiled.
    Did you have any problem like that with your barrel?
     
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  19. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    here's my 91 in 8x57. sorry not to good of pics

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    My first centerfire experience as well, how 'bout that! I was maybe 13 or 14. Whoo boy, that was a kick!:D
     
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  21. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I am going to offer something that is almost 100% ignored by today's shooting society.

    Chamber headspace is measured from the cartridge base to a location on the chamber shoulder. It is an important measurement.You can more or less see the relationship between case and chamber with this picture

    XOHUEzE.jpg

    If the cartridge headspace, that is base to shoulder measurement is too short, the shoulder will not be firmly supported in the chamber, misfires can happen. Also, if the case had to move an excessive amount to ignite, the front becomes fixed if the case and chamber are clean and dry, and as pressures build, the case sidewalls will stretch leading to case head separations. Like this:

    ivZMmgt.jpg

    But, the real importance of headspace is that it is a measurement that is easy to do by the user, and if headspace is excessive, the assumption is that the lugs or the receiver seats have set back, and cartridge case head protrusion is excessive. The shooting society basically ignores this because of all the emphasis on reloading, but this concept, how much case head is sticking out of the chamber, is the real safety critical aspect of headspace measurements.

    These are case head protrusions in a Mauser barrel and a M1903 barrel

    mgWVePU.jpg
    eUXibtK.jpg

    Chinn explains the importance of case head support in his series "The Machine Gun Vol IV". If too much of the case head sticks out of the chamber, the case ruptures:


    2xGBYpt.jpg

    pWU3Rmi.jpg

    The mechanism which Chinn shows has a lot of case movement before the case head is out of the chamber is the Oerlikon advanced primer ignition mechanism. And it worked because it used lubricated cases.

    Hhu9o4D.jpg

    The base to shoulder distance of this mechanism is almost irrelevant and it increases after cartridge ignition. But, by the time the case head is out of the mechanism interior pressures have dropped to the level that the case head won't burst.

    How this relates to your problem is, maybe someone in the past stuck a chamber reamer in your rifle and excessively deepened the chamber without changing the case head protrusion. If this is true, reloading for this action will be a bother, but firing cartridges is not necessarily dangerous.

    Have you fired any cartridges in this action and where is the pressure ring on the case head?

    I am going to say, with 30-06 based cartridges, any case head protrusion 0.2" or more is going to guarantee a blown case head. The web of the case will be outside of the chamber.

    WlMbARm.png

    Most case head protrusion measurements I have seen are just around 0.1", half of 0.2". I have seen 0.105" for some actions. I think the Mauser is less. If the case head protrusion on your rifle is just at 0.1" inches, and not even close to 0.2", than I am going to claim, you can fire cartridges in your rifle as long as they are lubricated.

    I don't have a good way to exactly measure this, but I think determining how much case web is inside the chamber, based on the pressure ring on the outside of the case, is one way to estimate case head protrusion.

    Case lubrication will allow the case to slide to the bolt face without excessive case wall stretch. Then, once fire formed, you can bump the shoulders back about 0.003" from fired, and use those cases in that rifle until the cases wear out.
     
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  22. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    ouuuuuuuu.. I am afraid to ask this next question, does your rifle have any crest on the receiver at all??? was that made as a sporting rifle to begin with???
     
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  23. If1HitU

    If1HitU Member

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    Thanks for sharing the rifle picture.:thumbup:
     
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  24. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    it's just a nomal lowe action. it started out like any other cut down 91. my friend gave me that j.p sauer barrel, i think it came of a 88 commision. there was room for me to do the forend tip. i fitted the barrel. used a home made stain to age the wood. still have to get some .318 bullets to shoot it. the barrel has never seen any copper, when i cleaned it there was some nickle fouling.
     
  25. handsonaudio

    handsonaudio Member

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    Slamfire, thank you for the lengthy post. It's certainly given me something to chew on. To answer your question, no, I have not yet fired any rounds in this gun. It was given to me by someone in my wife's family as it belonged to a great uncle long since passed. It was in pieces, rusted, and moldy when I got it. I've only cleaned it up (de-rusted, touch-up blued, stripped and tung oiled the stock, etc) and had it checked out by my gunsmith, whom I trust.

    I'm going to try an NOS bolt to see if that minimizes my headspace, but fire forming brass was my next/other option.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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