Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Arizona Gun Store Raided 9 mos. Ago Trial Over

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by dddfam, Mar 18, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dddfam

    dddfam Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    7
    Hi to everyone, I wanted to update everyone on the outcome from the story at the following link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4483431&posted=1#post4483431

    Iwrote what I knew that day, over 9 months ago and then just knida kept quiet, though I have to say I just wanted to post step by step. My mom called today and the Judge threw the whole case out. Trial began last Monday and the prosecution had finished up yesterday I believe and the defense was going to begin today. My understanding is there were motions today, no jury around and during this everything was dismissed. ALL guns, cars everything to be returned. They lied about friggin everything.

    I'm, again, still holding back some since I don't know who all reads this like the lying sack of sh#$ ATF and since I don't know yet what George's next steps are. I would be inventorying every item, they were throwing all the collector guns into trucks, many of them worth thousands of dollars are ruined, his collector Jag has been stored outdoors this whole time. I hope he plans on suing for all the damages, plus everything they put him and my mother through. He is so close to losing his home since they siezed all his bank accounts.

    Just a few weeks ago the New York Times ran the story about his case on the front page and it had so many lies in it, it was absolutely ridiculous. This is one of the most honest, honorable men I know and they acted like he was the scum of the earth. I have to add that the NRA was beyond disappointing in regards to this, they refused to even look into it, so much for supporting gun owners etc. Sites like this need to get together and start a new organization that REALLY does want to help defend citizens rights, the NRA is a joke.

    I can't wait to share more with you all once I'm sure it's okay, I doubt that the Phoenix papers or the New York Times will run this story on the front page, probably way on the back somewhere. All the people who trashed him, I hope he goes after all of them. I would destroy them, knowing George probably not. Another case of the ATF abusing law abiding citizens.

    Thanks to all for your support. I'll post more when I can.
     
  2. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,341
    Location:
    Burleson,Texas
    I hope you keep us updated on this. I was just about to rejoin the NRA so that I can join a local private shooting range. Any info on the NRA is appreciated at this time.

    I am glad the guy is found not guilty if he didn't do anything. I hope he sues there butts off.
     
  3. steverjo

    steverjo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Messages:
    169
    Location:
    Southern California
    Regarding your comment on forming another Organization to truely support individual rights, let me know if there is anything i can do to help.

    I am in California and it is time that we started doing something to help ourselves.

    PM me if you can think of how to go about this.
     
  4. davepool

    davepool Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    583
    Location:
    phoenix
    I haven't heard or read anything about the dismissal yet,but of course the media was all over this just before the trial.Keep us posted, i liked george,his shop is near my house and i bought a couple of guns an ammo from him. He had a Fulton armory M1A that i was interested in just before ATF hacked him, i hate to think what happened to it.
     
  5. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    13,233
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    Judge tosses charges vs. Valley gun seller

    by Dennis Wagner - Mar. 19, 2009 12:00 AM

    The Arizona Republic

    State prosecutors suffered a public setback in efforts to combat border violence Wednesday when a judge dismissed high-profile charges against a Phoenix gun dealer accused of arming Mexican cartels.

    The case against George Iknadosian, owner of X-Caliber Guns, had been covered on national TV broadcasts and in stories by the New York Times and Wall Street Journal.

    But in mid-trial, all 21 counts were dismissed by Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Robert Gottsfield, who decided he had found a flaw in the government's case.

    According to a minute entry, Gottsfield concluded that evidence against Iknadosian was not sufficient to support conviction based on a technical legal issue. Because the gun buyers all were eligible to acquire firearms, he said, their deception did not amount to a "material falsification." Consequently, Gottsfield ruled, the evidence did not show felonious conduct by Iknadosian.

    Gottsfield issued a directed verdict of not guilty for Iknadosian, 47, who was charged with fraud, money-laundering and other offenses.

    About 6,000 narcotics-related homicides were reported south of the border last year. Leading up to trial, Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard portrayed Iknadosian as a greedy business owner who helped fuel Mexico's bloodshed by supplying more than 700 AK-47s and other weapons to cartels.

    Late Wednesday, Anne Hilby, a spokeswoman for Goddard, issued a brief statement: "This office disagrees with the (judge's) analysis. We are already preparing an appeal, and we will continue to put the full strength of this office behind the case."

    Iknadosian had pleaded not guilty. Neither he nor his attorney, Thomas Baker, was available Wednesday afternoon.

    Iknadosian was accused of selling the firearms to "straw buyers," who then transported weapons to Mexico.

    Gottsfield dismissed jurors and granted acquittal in response to a so-called Rule 20 motion sought by Baker. Under Arizona law, Rule 20 holds that a case must be thrown out if the state's evidence is inadequate for conviction.

    "There is no proof whatsoever that any prohibited (firearm) possessor ended up with the firearms," he said.

    The case was considered a landmark prosecution in part because of cooperation with Mexican authorities, who provided evidence that guns from X-Caliber were used in criminal operations south of the border.

    The trial garnered even more attention because it began amid hearings on border violence at the Arizona Capitol and in Washington, D.C. Goddard and ATF agents depicted Iknadosian as among the most prominent U.S. gun dealers providing weapons to narcotics criminals. Working with Sonoran police, he traced guns from X-Caliber to Mexican murders and cartel figures.

    About a dozen co-defendants pleaded guilty to felony charges before other judges. Gottsfield's ruling on Wednesday appears to question whether they committed the crimes for which they were convicted.
     
  6. Sebastian the Ibis

    Sebastian the Ibis Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,865
    Location:
    "The Gunshine State"
    I appreciate the service and risks most law enforcement officers undertake, however arrests like these are disgusting.

    Mexican gangs are executing everyone in sight and making them into stew, as they make inroads across our borders. And instead of protecting us by arresting the real criminals, the ATF arrests a law abiding gun owner so that they can have a gun parade and show the TV cameras they are doing something.

    ICE is even worse. The would rather arrest everyone who looks foreign at their local convenience store than go after real criminals:http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...t_ice_agents_pressured_to_meet_arrest_quotas/
     
  7. sernv99

    sernv99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    749
    According to a minute entry, Gottsfield concluded that evidence against Iknadosian was not sufficient to support conviction based on a technical legal issue

    I don't see how the gov't fabricated this case :rolleyes: He got off on a technicality. If the whole case was "fabricated", it would had been dismissed under those circumstances.
     
  8. sernv99

    sernv99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    749
    ICE is even worse. The would rather arrest everyone who looks foreign at their local convenience store than go after real criminals

    ICE is worse in that they are not cracking down fast enough, the illegals. If you think they arrest anyone foreign looking, tell them to come to my neck of the woods. We have day laborers hanging out everywhere, cluttering up the communities.
     
  9. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,299
    Location:
    New Jersey Highlands
    Assuming you aren't joking . . . . .

    You are accepting the characterization provided by the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned-anti-gun-media.

    If you read and try to understand what was written, the "technicality" was NO EVIDENCE THAT A CRIME WAS COMMITTED.

    That would imply a fabricated case eh? If you were accused of something without evidence?

    Please, please wake up! You have to start paying attention - do not accept the drivel that they shovel at you - the truth is there in plain sight if you look for it!
     
  10. Duke of Doubt

    Duke of Doubt member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,863
    Highland Ranger: "If you read and try to understand what was written, the "technicality" was NO EVIDENCE THAT A CRIME WAS COMMITTED."

    Bravo, Ranger. When some complain that I "get my clients off" on a "technicality," I like to remind them that the "technicality" in question is the United States Constitution. But your "technicality" is just as good.
     
  11. statelineblues

    statelineblues Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    In PA
    The way I read the article, it seems to be insinuating that it was a small technical point about the law, not that the defendant was innocent.
    This is the most important part of the story, and yet it's buried halfway down in the report. They are still trying to convict the man, but this time thru the press.

    It is unfortunate, but I doubt he will ever get to re-open his store, because the ATF will never give his FFL back.
     
  12. dddfam

    dddfam Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    7
    George just called sounded great, was brief but just wanted to say thanks, I let him know some of the things being written since he doesn't have a computer, they took that to, didn't find anything but my moms solitaire scores, lol He said it was all over the news down there, haven't seen anything where I am, but really haven't the whole time.

    In answer to Mr. technicality, when EVERY peson you sell a gun to PASSES the background check by the GOVERNMENT and then walks out the door, how are you possdibly respobsible for what they do after that?????

    I'd love to have someone come buy a used car from you or one of these news reporters and then give it to a drug or gun runner then turn it into a new story about how YOU are providing transportation to drug cartels.

    The government is made up of about 90% crooks, at least in law inforcement and you'd better open up your eyes. I've been told that for years, kinda laughed it off and then saw this happen to George.

    Most people take the deal, he was offered 7 years, instead of going to trial and risking some jury saying "the government wouldn't lie" and him getting 120 years, but when you're innocent you fight! I hope anyone else going through this now or in the future remembers that, you take the deal, your guilty in everyones eyes. If your innocent you fight to your last breath.

    P.S. I just saw the part about reopening his store, I don't believe he is going to, I was told he actually could, but you know they'll never leave him alone. Not sure what he'll do but most liekely not that, hopefully sue them and retire for the rest of his life, lol
     
  13. noskilz

    noskilz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    Good grief, man, get a grip. Nothing in the story says what the "technicality" was except the government's lack of evidence. I guess "no evidence" can be a "technicality," sort of, I guess.

    By the way, lack of evidence could be another way of saying the case was "fabricated," since "fabrication of evidence" is not a defense. Rather, fabrication of evidence might be prosecutable against as an offense against those who did the fabrication. But that would be in a separate proceeding.
     
  14. sernv99

    sernv99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    749
    You are accepting the characterization provided by the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned-anti-gun-media

    The Arizona Republic ENDORSED McCain in '08, and Bushie in '00 '04. Uh oh, how can this be??!!!:eek: Are you saying the AZ Republic is anti-gun? Seems "pro-gun" to me, endorsing three "pro-gun" candidates.
     
  15. beatcop

    beatcop Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    336
    "ATF Supervisory Special Agent Pete Forcelli said Iknadosian knew the guns were going to cartels. In making the case, undercover agents bought weapons, and he
    coached them on how fill out paperwork to disguise the sales.

    Weapons traced to X-Caliber turned up at several Mexican murder scenes. In one recent Mexican case, an X-Caliber AK-47 was found alongside grenade-launcher equipment and 3 tons of marijuana.

    One of the guns sold by X-Caliber was a .38-caliber pistol recovered in January when the Mexican army arrested a Sinaloan cartel leader, Alfredo Beltran Leyva, in Culiacan. Leyva was suspected of running hit squads and is right-hand man to Mexico's most-wanted fugitive, cartel boss Joaquin "Chapo" Guzman."


    What's that all about? Probably just some bad coincidences.

    If it was all a terrible mistake, I feel bad for him, but it doesn't read well.

    The original arrest warrant would probably be entertaining, since the case is disposed of, how about posting it?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2009
  16. sernv99

    sernv99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    749
    Good grief, man, get a grip. Nothing in the story says what the "technicality" was except the government's lack of evidence..

    point out where in the story it says the technicality was the gov't lack of evidence. Or are you making assumptions, which doesn't make for a convincing argument.

    I guess "no evidence" can be a "technicality," sort of, I guess.

    well you just proved my point from above, you have no knowledge or facts that the technicality was due to "no evidence"

    Thank you.:)
     
  17. statelineblues

    statelineblues Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    In PA
    sernv99 - as I quoted earlier;

     
  18. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    20,682
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    Goodness - this could mean anything. I watch a LOT of 4473s get filled out by a lot of first-time gun buyers, and the vast majority of them require that the clerk explain how to fill out the form and answer questions along the way to guide the buyer through the form. That can be stated as 'coaching them on how to fill out the form' as much as anything else.

    It's the INTENT of the assistance that makes it either simple 'help' or 'coaching'.

    I can only surmise that the .gov was willing to label his intent as fraudulent but unable to articulate that suitably enough to keep their charges in play.
     
  19. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    12,763
    Location:
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    Stupid Bill of Rights, full of stupid technicalities, stupid State of Arizona for having a technicality law requiring cases be dropped for insufficient evidence. Stupid technicality of Presumption of Innocence. The heck were those founding fathers thinking, anyway?
     
  20. democrat

    democrat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Indeed.

    As a defense attorney, my biggest problem with reportage is not the slant a particular outlet may have, but the fact that reporting about cases is usually so inaccurate because 1) they report on a case without all the facts (often because they produce a story that purports to be complete before the case is over--or has even begun) and 2) reporters, even those who are assigned to the cops and courts beat, often have a very poor understanding of the system/process/terminology/law.
     
  21. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts
    ATF

    About the only thing I know about the ATF is this.Years ago,a friend of mine got on the ATF.After a few years,he got out and took a job with Immigration.He left because of all the shady things the ATF pulls.He said they would make arrests full knowing they were bad,just to justify their budgets.Take it for what it's worth.
     
  22. sernv99

    sernv99 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    749
    sernv99 - as I quoted earlier;


    Quote:
    Consequently, (Judge) Gottsfield ruled, the evidence did not show felonious conduct by Iknadosian.
    "There is no proof whatsoever that any prohibited (firearm) possessor ended up with the firearms," he said.



    "no proof whatsoever" doesn't equte to fabrication on the govie's part as some are suggesting. So in the end, the gov't had no proof of illegal actions on the part of the store owner, the judge didn't throw out the case due to fabrication. Big difference. Even the dumbest of prosecutors will not submit an appeal knowing the case was fabricated from the get go.
     
  23. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,908
    Location:
    Arizona
    Some years ago the evil and mostly useless National Rifle Association (NRA) successfully lobbied to have the 1968 GCA amended so that in prosecuting a case they would have to show deliberate criminal intent on the part of the defendant.

    In conducting his business, a dealer is required to determine the identity of a potential buyer by observing and recording some acceptable identification – usually a driver’s license or state-issued identification card, both with a photo. Next, both the buyer and dealer must complete a No. 4473 form with specifics about both the buyer and the firearm he or she is buying. Last but not least, the dealer must call a designated government agency and submit whatever information is ask for so that the government agency can make a background check of the buyer. If all goes well the dealer can proceed with the sale.

    Now this may come as a shock to many, but some of these buyers are not honest people. They are actually untruthful when they make out their part of the 4473 form, use phony identification, and sometimes have others who can legally by a gun do it for them. :uhoh: :rolleyes:

    All of this is illegal, but what the heck. If the dealer follows all of the rules and regulations but it turns out that the buyer wasn’t exactly what they represented themselves to be it's all of the dealers fault, not the buyers.

    A dealer is required to do at least the following:

    1. They must record each firearm they acquire in a book.

    2. They must log it out when they sell it, and enter the number of the 4473 form that was filled out.

    3. They must t keep and have the 4473 form available for inspection, and the form must have on it a number the government agency that made the background check gave the dealer, which is proof that the background check was made.

    So long as the dealers is doing all of this, and as long as the required background check of the buyer is made, it may be presumed that the dealer is not operating his business with criminal intent, unless the BATF&E can prove otherwise.

    What the judge ruled here was that the government lawyers had not shown evidence of criminal intent, just that the dealer had made the sales – something he didn’t deny in the first place.

    As Duke or Doubt noted, the Constitution of the United States, and its included Bill of Rights, were intended to protect “the people” from an over-aggressive government that didn’t always go along with the idea that a defendant was innocent until proven guilty. All those little “technicalities” are a constant source of pain to those in the government that would much prefer to make they’re own rules. The BATF&E has a long history of doing it “their way,” and I am delighted to see that they didn’t get away with it this time.
     
  24. grimjaw

    grimjaw Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    3,358
    Location:
    Arkansas
    I had kind of tuned out after the first line in the article:

    State prosecutors suffered a public setback in efforts to combat border violence

    That right there tells me the reporter assumes guilt, even with the technicality.

    jm
     
  25. threefeathers

    threefeathers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,179
    Location:
    AZ
    I hate to say it, but I think the fellow was guilty as hell. He gives ammo to the anti-s and he seems to have no regrets. An Iranian immigrant I understand, he gives us all a bloody nose.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page