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Arizonans! Make your voice heard!

Discussion in 'Activism' started by armoredman, Apr 7, 2010.

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  1. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Tomorrow SB1108 is on the Third Read floor calender for the House of Representatives, the Constitutional Carry bill! This is the one that will make Arizona the third state in the nation to recognize our citizens Constitutional right to carry a firearm, open or concealed, without a government permission form. Please contact your Representatives and ask them to vote YES on SB1108, being substituted for HB 2347. This is the last vote needed, after this the last stop is Governor Brewers desk, and right now her 2A record looks pretty darn good! Please get active!
    Thank you for your time.
     
  2. L-Frame

    L-Frame Member

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    Sorry, but I'm going to have to take the other side of this one. I've lived in AZ fro 40 years, love guns, have had a concealed carry permit since they became available in AZ, but this, quite frankly, scares the hell out of me. The thought of anyone, whether they want to take the time to learn even a minimum of shooting skills and firearms safety or not, being able to slip a gun under their shirt gives me nighmares.

    It's not the criminals that scare me. It's the average citizen who thinks that the presence of a gun in their purse or wasteband makes then safer, even if they don't practice with it at all, are the ones that scare me. It's like a girlfriend I had years ago. I told her once that maybe she should buy a gun for her apartment and I would teach her how to use it. She said that she already had one that her dad gave her and proceeded to pull a .38 out of her drawer by picking it up with her thumb and forefinger. If she would have had to use it, the safest person in the room would have been whoever she was shooting at.

    I'm TOTALLY in support of people being able to protect themselves with firearms, as long as they put in the time to do it right. Unfortunately there are too many who will not put in that (or any) time.

    I'm also for everyone being able to drive, as long as they have a license. I don't want people driving without one and really don't see the difference with guns.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Dave
     
  3. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    You are entitled to your opinion, sir. :)
    I have been in this state going on 43 years, and have seen the opposite. You see, open carry has been legal in AZ since 1912, and anyone who is not a prohibited possessor can lawfully carry a sidearm openly with no formal training necessary...same as we don't require formal training to buy a book or cast a vote, other members of the Bill of Rights.
    "BUT, that's not the same!' Of course not, on the surface, but the right is as protected as any other in the BoR, which is why this is important. When you require government permission to exercise a right, it is no right. Driving is NOT protected under the Constitution, so government permissions are allowed...and licensed, insured, trained, registered drivers kill more people than uneducated gun owners hands down every day of the year.
    On the flip side, we are also working on education on firearms safety in AZ schools too, currently offered as a course usable by school districts, and getting improved itself, looking forward to a time when Firearms Ed is as mandatory as Drivers Ed.
    If it saves one life....
    But, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, sir, and I wish you well.
     
  4. L-Frame

    L-Frame Member

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    I don't want to get into an argument here because we both really support the same thing: people being able to defend themselves with guns. I would love to see firearms education in the public schools although I do find your use of the word mandatory interesting, since you were just saying how needing government permission to exercise a right is no right at all.

    I believe, (and hope I'm wrong) that when enough unqualified, irresponsible people, in the course of using firearms in defense of themselves or others, hurt or kill people who weren't supposed to be hurt or killed (innocent bystanders), it will do grave harm to the advancements made in AZ regarding civilian firearms use.

    And yes, car crashes kill thousands each year. And those are licensed drivers. Do you really think it wouldn't be exponentially worse if we just said that anyone who wants to drive can do so, without any training on how to drive a car or what the rules of the road are? Tell me that doesn't make you a little bit nervous?
     
  5. cbrgator

    cbrgator Member

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    L-Frame,

    Without getting into an ideological debate, because as you said, we support the same thing, I am compelled to point out that the fundamental difference between the subjects of your analogy is that bearing arms is a constitutional right and driving is privilege.

    That being said, I do understand your concern and I don't wish to demean you in any way.
     
  6. L-Frame

    L-Frame Member

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    In many states, that constitutional right has been taken away. So, constitutional right or not, if it's not used responsibly and innocent people are hurt all of us who support firearms ownership could lose in the end.

    There are just so many people out there who want a gun for protection, have no idea what they are doing, and will not think it necessary to become safe or competent (many will think that they already are, many won't want to take the time) with a gun. I don't understand, constitution or not, how that doesn't make anyone very nervous.

    Gun ownership is a constitutional issue. Gun safety/competence is a common sense/public safety issue. If we ignore the latter, we may sacrifice the former.

    Wow, that sounded awfully deep. I must be getting tired. Bed time.
    Good shooting.

    Dave
     
  7. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Not if McDonald is a win, but that fight is yet to come. It is lost only because we let it be lost, and let them demonize the mere posession of a tool.
    Firearms accidents are not nearly what brady would have you believe, or the media. I have to say, I have heard that combination before, "common sense" and "guns" in the same sentance, usually from Schumer or Pelosi, sorry. Common Sense in thier definition does not trump the Supreme Law of the Land. If you don't like the Constitution, amend it, or learn to live with it.
    As for mandatory, Drivers Ed is an elective, last time I checked, it's mandatory for the schools to offer it.
    That's what I meant.
    Good night.
     
  8. atomd

    atomd Member

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    2 states already allow concealed carry without a license and open carry is allowed in many more. I don't recall ever reading about having the right to keep and bear arms as long as you take a safety course, get approval from your police chief after giving references and filling out piles of paperwork, giving your fingerprints, and paying hundreds of dollars in fees. In some places you have to go through even more nonsense than that...and then throw in "may issue" and add in the crazy fees that you'd have to pay in some places and you are seriously infringing on people's rights.
     
  9. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    WE NEED A CLASS! WE NEED A CLASS! WE NEED A CLASS!

    That's usually all I hear. Can't trust those gun owners, they need to be EDUCATED.

    How about a requirement to have a class to have a baby. Or to buy a house. Or to go on vacation.
     
  10. NelsErik

    NelsErik Member

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    I Respectfully Disagree with you L-Frame.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  11. millertyme

    millertyme Member

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    I never took drivers ed. I have owned a couple dozen vehicles since I was 16 years old (15 years ago) and never once did I take a "mandatory" driving class. I have been hunting since I was 12 and I took a mandatory hunters education class. I think It would be intersting to look at the stats of how many cars are on the road and how many driving fatalities there are vs how many firearms there are and how many friearms related human deaths there are per year. I know there are guys on here with dozens of firearms. I have several myself, as do all of my brothers and my father. However, none of us more than a couple cars right now. I'll get back to you with this in a little bit.
     
  12. millertyme

    millertyme Member

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    Firearms in the US – 200,000,000 according to FBI estimates

    Firearms related deaths – 30,000 per year, over 16,000 were suicides, nearly 12,000 were homicides, the rest were unintentional or of “unknown intent”

    Automobiles in the US – 250,000,000 registered vehicles in the US in 2009

    Automobile-related deaths in the US – 34,000 in 2009, more than half of which involved alcohol or drugs

    If you look solely at the per capita numbers, firearms are slightly more dangerous than automobiles, but a closer look tells us firearms are more dangerous to crazy people who are looking to kill themselves and vehicles are more dangerous when mixed with alcohol. Alcohol related fatalities are substantially more dangerous than firearms in the hands of a person with malicious intent. So, maybe they should focus more efforts on rehabbing crazy people and getting folks to stop drinking and driving and less on keeping firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens regardless of how they intend to carry it and how much training they’ve received.
     
  13. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I'd reccomend you change your numbers, sir, deliberate acts have to be excluded, as this question deals with untrained individuals and accidents, and it deals with Arizona only, at the moment. I think that will lower the numbers dramatically. A visit to the website for National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, an apparent subset of the CDC, http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html and we see a quick sampling shows mortality injury unintentional by firearm from 1999-2006 in Arizona was 122 out of a population of, 44,382,759, age adjusted to a rate of .28. Change that to motor vehicle, overall, same age and year range, and we get 8814, out of a population of 44,382,759, age adjusted to a rate of 19.90. That seems to be a bit differant, and all drivers are licened, registered, and insured, as opposed to no formal firearms training required to own/carry openly/use a firearm legally.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  14. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Watching House proceedings live right now...the clerk is one incredible speed reader.
     
  15. salvador31c

    salvador31c Member

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    wow

    I cant handle the suspense much longer
     
  16. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Bill passes third read with a tally of 36 to 19, back to the Senate for a formality, then to the Governors desk.
    Rock on!
     
  17. salvador31c

    salvador31c Member

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    Thats some good stuff!! I honestly didnt think it would pass, but I'm glad it did.
     
  18. sonick808

    sonick808 Member

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    why back to the senate ?
     
  19. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I understand it's a mere formality, no more votes, just touch base and off to the Gov's desk.
     
  20. L-Frame

    L-Frame Member

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    Well guys I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will end it with this though, if you all turn out to be right and I turn out to be wrong, no one will be happier about it than me.
     
  21. NelsErik

    NelsErik Member

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    Was there an increase in innocent bystander deaths in Vermont or Alaska?
     
  22. L-Frame

    L-Frame Member

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    I don't know anything about Vermont but I have been to Alaska a few times and am good friends with a guy who lived there for years. Alaska has a gun/hunting culture where gun handling skills are passed down from parents to kids, even in the cities. That's awesome.

    I'm worried about the single moms and young adults, etc. in phoenix who have never owned a gun, have no idea how to shoot it, what the basic safety rules are, proper storage, etc. who didn't want to take the time before but now, since they no longer have to, would feel safer with a gun in the pocket or purse or whatever.

    Like I said, if I'm wrong I will be ecstatic. REALLY!
     
  23. salvador31c

    salvador31c Member

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    I understand your reasoning.

    I dont believe there will large surge in "uneducated firearm owners" running the streets wild. I believe most people have the common sense to know that a firearm can be dangerous and will therefore take proper percautions.

    I self educated myself when I first became interested. The internet & forums like these were a great help. I took the Mandated CCW class in october & I didnt learn anything new that I didnt already know. So what was the point of me shelling out $150, wasting 8hrs of my life and missing work?

    Common Sense rules, & u cant fix stupid.
     
  24. .45&TKD

    .45&TKD Member

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    Gosh, it's not like we're banning gun safety classes.

    I live in AZ. I shot some when I was young, but I bought my first handgun about 10 years ago, a 1911. First thing I did was take a introductory handgun course to learn it's proper operation. The class was the first time I fired it.

    I did not need the government to tell me to do this! The idea that the common sense of the populace will be different when unlicensed concealed carry is legal, after almost 100 years of unlicensed open carry in this state is ridiculous.

    Gun training is great. We just don't need the government to tell us to do it.

    Can't see how this right is important? How about a pregnant woman who cannot take the class because of the potential lead poisoning to the baby? Doesn't she have the right to buy a gun today and keep it loaded if she has or feels the need to be armed, perhaps due to some stalker situation?
     
  25. L-Frame

    L-Frame Member

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    "I did not need the government to tell me to do this!"

    That's my point. You did it anyway because you thought it was the intelligent thing to do whereas I think that there many that won't. Do they have the right too? Sure. I just don't want to be anywhere near them if they ever have to use it.

    I'll finish with one story: I know it won't change anyone's mind but I'll tell it anyway. At my first concealed carry class MANY years at Shooter's world, a lady was qualifying with a 6" S&W 686. She was firing nice groups with it at 10 yards, VERY slowly. To his credit, the instructor saw what she was doing and told her that a real life situation would not give her that much time. He then had the class put their guns on the counter and he turned the lights down. He said that when the lights come up we would have 3 seconds to pick up our guns and fire 3 shots at the 10 yard target. He turned the lights up and the lady only got off only 2 shots in the 3 seconds and completely missed the target with one of them. She looked annoyed that he would put her in that scenario and ruin her nice groups. After it was over, I asked her if she was actually going to carry that cannon in her purse and she told me that she carried a 638 airweight but doesn't shoot it because it hurts too much. I'll never argue with her right to carry it, I'll just pray me or a loved one are not around if she has to use it.

    Maybe that's are only difference here. I believe that there are many more of those types out there (and she was actually training, just not very well) than you guys do. And I do not believe that her 638 airweight in her purse makes her safer.

    Sorry for ruffling everyones feathers.

    God Bless.
     
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