Armalite AR15 or Colt AR15

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cbsbyte said:
Bushmaster did make M4s for the military.

In April 1990, Bushmaster sold a whopping total of 65 M4 carbines to the U.S. Army. These weapons went to Aberdeen for testing. That is pretty much the full extent of Bushmaster's production of rifles for the military. Bushmaster never had a "contract" to produce the M4. This was a one time purchase for testing purposes at Aberdeen.

The source for this is the redacted version of the Bushmaster v. Colt trademark case.

You can find a further discussion of that case on THR here (it also covers the TDP issue - short version, Colt continued to develop the TDP after it was given to Bushmaster):
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170259

Pat Rogers said:
I see many guns in a year- in the thousands. As Jeff can tell you, i have a photo book of broken guns. As is no surprise, the only issues with M4/M4A1 guns is that the bolt lugs will show cracks after 10k rounds- normal wear..

Pat, if I could tap into your knowledge for a moment? The 2006 NDIA SOPMOD presentation (page 44-52) makes reference to bolts cracking as early as 3k-6k rounds with harsh firing schedules and 10k rounds with milder firing schedules. It also references burned out M4 barrels by 4k-6k rounds with harsh schedules and 10k with milder schedules.

I was curious what you had seen in your classes regarding those two issues and what type of firing schedule you were running (since your numbers seem to be close to the SOPMOD numbers for a moderate firing schedule)?
 
Colt makes one of the best AR on the market. With that being said they are WAY overpriced!!! And the the quality of a colt can be matched by BM, Stag, RRA, which are alot cheaper (price). LMT, CMMG ,BCM, CMT (which is Stag) also make quality products at a better price.
 
vanfunk said:
Colt makes a better carbine for innumerable reasons. You can choose to buy something else for political reasons as that is your prerogative, but you won't be getting a better AR. For a range weapon, it doesn't really matter what you get. For a hard use weapon, as has been stated already, get the Colt.

vanfunk


and just what ARE these "innumerable" reasons?
 
Since I am not believed, but not that it matters; here are some of the articles as I have not been able to locate all of them nor do I really care to have to prove my point to anyone as this is really a matter of opinion and preference and the only real difference is that you end up paying more for the horse and staff emblem as Armalite is just as good or better than Colt.

wikipedia.org
In 1995, former Army Ordnance officer Mark Westrom, owner of Eagle Arms, purchased the ArmaLite brand and the company became Armalite Inc. Shortly thereafter Armalite introduced a modern version of the AR-10. The new Armalite AR-10 was patterned after the AR-15A2, scaled up to take the 7.62 x 51 mm Nato cartridge, along with various design improvements designed to strengthen the rifle. Ironically the original AR-15 itself was a scaled-down AR-10. The new AR-10 is offered in several versions including a carbine and target model, and one version is chambered in 300 Rem SAUM. Some rifles have been acquired by U.S. military special operations and other forces for testing and evaluation.

FindArticles.com > American Rifleman > Dec 2004 > Article
As this is written, ArmaLite AR-IOs are in the hands of Special Ops troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although officially adopted only by the Navy Seals, the rifle is also available to those units budgeted for special weapons and is being purchased by them. Additionally, individual soldiers are reportedly purchasing AR-10s "off the shelf." Word from the front is that the guns are performing marvelously. The current ArmaLite company has precious little to do with the original, yet it does the original company proud by offering excellent, unique arms to a shooting public-and military-that have finally discovered the virtues of a .30-cal., AR-type rifle. If early indications are true, then the company's reputation will soon swell among shooters as returning troops speak glowingly of the AR-10 and spread the word of its success in our current conflicts. When that happens, the AR-10's time will have finally arrived.
Copyright National Rifle Association of America Dec 2004
An added note is that US Marines have been using Armalites successfuly in Iraq and Afghanistan, although I have been unable to find the article.
 
Bartholomew,
Thanks. I was aware of the small amount tested at that time. I really wanted to have someone attempt to come up w/ "proof" of Bushamster used as a standard "A" weapon- and that wasn't going to happen.
I am familiar with the NDIA doc. I have put a lot of guns through harsh firing schedules. However, as only sniper rifles and the MEU(SOC) pistol have gun books (that i am aware of), i have absolutely no way of determining round counts on mil guns.
I have been w/one unit that did keep a rough count. Bolt lugs did crack after appx 10k rounds. As for barrels... That same doc also states that the throat erosion method is "accurate" only about 40% (or is it 60%?) of the time.
Another issue is that under 100m the throat can be worn way out and still be capable of decent accuracy. At distance it is obvious.
The MK18's (and other 10.5" guns) seem to show wear quicker (go figure...)
I have however seen a large number of lower tier bolts break at low round counts. In one case, a BM with less than 500 rds cracked at the cam pin hole, and a DPMS at less then 750.
From my experience, i generally replace the uppers at 10k. I had a few that went to 20k. I used these guns as loaners for students who brought garbage to class.
Now i don't loan anymore, and keep the guns at a higher state of maintenance.

RJ- Don't take my posts personally. I don't believe most people :)
Having said that, the thread that YOU started was "Armalite AR15 or Colt"
You provide a Wikepedia source (and that is not official, and has had accuracy issues in the past) that references AR10's - not the AR15's that you used as a topic.
I am aware of AR10's being T&E. I have shot some. That does not indicate adoption by the military.
Re the NRA pub. That is not an official document either. That SOCOM has leeway in T&E and purchase, their are a number of items - including guns- that have been through this cycle. That does not constitute adoption.
Kindly recall that L-W made great noise about how their guns were being bought by the military. None available because they are all going to blablah.
This organization and that were blah blah.
Of course, they were lying out of their teeth, and were exposed, and Paul L-W separated from the company.
Come up with facts, not internet babble or magazine stories, about the "AR 15's' (You do know that the military doesn't use AR15's, right?) from Armalite that are being used by the military.
Interesting that you use the term "just as good" . I use the term "Just as good as" all of the time, but derogatorily, when comparing the lower tier to the real guns- generally when a guy who bought a "just as good as" gun has to finish the class with one of my guns.
 
I dont take it personally nor do I care if you believe me or not; are you a trouble making troll that is looking for an argument, as I dont know what else that it could be, you asked to cite sources and I did although I could not find all of them, I didnt write them, take it up with the authors if you dont like it.
I said that the military is using Armalite I didnt say AR15, AR15 is the civilian model and M16 is the military model and actually Armalite makes the AR10 and M15.
There is no internet babble about it, again I didnt write it so take it up with the authors, just because you dont like it or agree with it doesnt change anything as that is your opinion.
"Just as good or better than" is a term that people use as I find no reason why an Armalite doesnt function as well or better than a Colt since Colt is a known trademark name that most people are familiar with it would be a benchmark to compare with.
If your guns are better than everyone elses than good for you.
If you dont like it then dont post or go argue on a board that promotes arguing.
 
Gale McMillan used to say he'd talk guns all day but only argue

Gale McMillan used to say he'd talk guns all day but only argue with folks who had something to match the targets - especially one - he had framed around the office.

Similarly Pat Rogers has a record that establishes Mr. Rogers is not arguing he is giving us all, certainly me, the benefit of his documented experience and observation.

Colt rifles are no more overpriced than say 10-8 pistols even from Nighthawk - people are willing to pay the price for good reasons - when every vendor is running a sale on Colt and everybody who wants one has one THEN it will be reasonable to say Colt is overpriced. I suspect I could swap my 6920 - which cost me about $900 out the door - for another brand and some boot but I'm not about to do any such thing. FWIW my carry 1911 has a thistle on it not a bird.

To repeat myself - if I wanted to shoot .204 Ruger to keep down the ground squirrels and prairie dogs I'd likely buy another brand but to hang an ACOG - or pick your poison - on Colt as as they said about the America in a boat race a long time ago - there is no second place. I wish somebody would tell me about a sight that's as good as the S&B short scope and half the price though.
 
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Clark- your analogy to a Short Dot is excellent, and also a reason why equipment of different quality exists.
Not everyone wants/ can afford/ requires/ or has a clue what is good, better, sufficient or trash.
The majority of those that attend my class are in the business- so to speak- while the rest are average Joe's who do it for a variety of reasons. My Dad used to say "Buy cheap, buy twice", and i agree.
I also understand that very few who own guns actually shoot them enough to make a difference, so "just as good as" in respect to non MPI bolts and barrels, lesser quality internal parts, non spec receiver extensions and the like are not going to make a whole lot of difference.
Most gun owners buy as the result of advertisng rather than actual knowledge of what is and what isn't (and for good reason- where do you get that).
I certainly don't have that degree of verifiable information, but i get to see a lot. In the last 3 weeks, i supervised just under 200,000 rounds of 5.56x45mm downrange. I even pressed the trigger a few thousand times. Dosen't make me smart. But it does add to my experience level.
Back to Short Dots...
I bring a number of different optics to my class a loaners Schmidt and Bender Short dots (two of mine), and now S&B has a "test drive package of 3 additional; 4 EOTechs, and now some Aimpoints. It gives those who are considering a purchase an opportunity to try befpre a buy.
At my last mil class, the Leupold rep awarded a CQ/T to the high enlisted shooter- pretty generous.
My Dad also used to say "You can pay now, or you can pay later. But you are going to pay.
I prefer to use- and recommend, that equipment that i trust. My life is worth more than advertising.
 
Wikipedia is an open-source document; anyone can contribute. Not only does this not make it a useful source, it is even further removed than even third-hand sources such as encyclopedias with known authors. (I can give you a lecture on standards of evidence if you like, from an academic standpoint. In this case, since specific government usage is questioned, Mr. Rogers is entirely correct in calling for government documents ["primary source"] as proof.)

There will be no personal attacks, and it hardly makes sense to produce what is essentially internet rumor when talking to one of the chief experts on this weapons system.

Hm.
 
RJMacReady, just a moderatorial heads up, but you may want to chill out on calling Pat a troll. I would also recommend that you go do a little bit of research about the man before you pick a fight with him. The man has probably shot more from an M4 type rifle in a day than you have in your life.

On that note, I disagree with Pat. :p But not for any technical reasons. I come from a totally different background. I'm a gun dealer.

From a totally civillian perspective, I hate dealing with Colt. They have the worst customer service in the industry. (the only other company that comes close is HK). Colt still turns out lemons occasionaly, and they still screw up. However when you break your Rock River or your Stag, you will get taken care of, whereas Colt will call you names.

Colts may be great guns, but they are a pain in my butt. :)

The bolts that break at the camslot hole are usually a result of improper heat treat. I learned this through my experience beta testing for a gun company.

Also you will discover that the AR industry is massively inbred. The civillian side of the business is totally different than military rifles with all the specs and agreements. Your civillian rifle may have one company stamped on the receiver, but that receiver was probably made by a company you've never heard of, and the parts are made by six other manufacturers.

Currently my favorite brand is Stag. I find that the quality has been excellent, price has been great, and service has been superb. We've sold a lot of these to local SWAT teams, and the guns have held up well under their training schedules. Stag is owned by CMT, one of those little companies that you've probably never heard of. CMT makes a lot of Colt's parts. Go figure.

No offense intended to Pat. He is the expert on this subject. These are just my opinions.
 
An expert- as once defined by a wise man- is someone who travels more than 50 miles and has a briefcase.......
FWTIW
I feel your pain re Colt customer service, and agree that only hk is worse.
I haven't seen enough Stag guns to make a hard statement on worth, but those i have seen have run very well.
Correia, you are not offending me. Your opinions are based on a frame of reference that includes working around a large number of guns, and dealing with the problems.
I do very little of that at my level (fortunately....).
Colt made (perhaps a better term would be "had made for them") corporate decisions based on the gang rape that took place at the hands of those then in control.
I kike Bill Keys. He is a genuine American hero, and he invited me up shortly after he took over. He told me things that i might not have told Pat Rogers, but i also understood why.
My opinion is that Colt can keep up with the military demand. It may not make sense to go after civilian sales when keeping those who defend us supplied is their priority.
I alsi believe that the state and city may still be an influence- certainly the union is a problem.
And that is probably why the aftermarket industry is doing so well, in spite of faults.
For now, anyway.
 
Originally Posted by vanfunk
Colt makes a better carbine for innumerable reasons. You can choose to buy something else for political reasons as that is your prerogative, but you won't be getting a better AR. For a range weapon, it doesn't really matter what you get. For a hard use weapon, as has been stated already, get the Colt.

vanfunk




and just what ARE these "innumerable" reasons?

A comparison of a Colt 6920 and a Bushmaster "M4" would reveal the following:
Bushmaster marks their barrels "B MP" although not all of them are magnafluxed or proofed - only a small sample of each lot is sampled. Colt tests every barrel. The Bushmaster barrel will (likely) be a 1/9" twist barrel, not as versatile as the 1/7" twist on the Colt. Bushmaster has a habit (I've had 4 examples so afflicted) of over-indexing their barrels so that 20-25 clicks to the left are necessary to zero at 100 yards. The Bushmaster will not have the correct "F" height front sight base, ususally requiring that the front sight post be raised above the ears of the sight tower for a proper zero. Bushmaster does not Magnaflux and shot peen their bolts and carriers, or use the correct extractor insert. Bushmaster does not use the "H" buffer as Colt does, and the Bushmaster receiver extension is extruded and oversized compared to the Colt (which is forged and sized correctly). Bushmaster has a well-documented history of staking their gas keys poorly (again, I have had 4 that needed restaking out of the box). Bushmaster does not use double heat-shielded handguards as the Colt does. Colt has the TDP and assembles their product according to strict QC guidelines, Bushmaster seems to use their consumer base as a QA/QC testing bed. Again, for a range toy I really don't think it makes much of a difference, but I'd gladly pay more to get more when it comes to a defensive firearm. There's more to Colt than the little Horsie on the side, and no, they're not overpriced when you put the Colt up against the competition toe-to-toe, feature-to-feature.

vanfunk
 
Excellent post Mr Vanfunk!
So, they are "just as good as" except for those items listed? (sarcasm not evident over the bandwidth....)
I'll add that of 28 BM guns purchased by a SWAT team that i had the privelege of teaching (and they were very good) the majority of the guns had problems, and CS was non existent as the police reb was on vacation at the time.
In June, eight guns from another lower tier maker all had major- and i mean major- problems out of the box.
The TDP means that a standard has to be met.
Those who aren't required to meet a standard often take shortcuts. These may involve streamining the process- or using sub standard parts and poor QC/ QA.
Others (Noveske, BMC and others) will exceed the standars because of their adherence to ethics.
You pay now, or you pay later. But you will pay...
 
Thank you Sir!

Frankly, it's really, really not a "snob mentality". Everybody wants as good a piece as they can get, at a price they can afford. I used to be of the opinion that every AR was "just as good as a Colt" and they all looked the same, anyway, so what's the difference, right? Well, after going through 4 Bushmasters (admittedly not a huge sample size, but a data point nonetheless) and owning 4 Colts, and researching the differences between brands, it has become abundantly clear why Colts cost more and are better built than the competition. We all want an AR that is "as good as a Colt" but costs less, the problem is that it just doesn't exist yet. I'm thrilled to see companies like BCM taking Colt on - they seem to be doing all the right things and I hope to able to acquire one of their uppers when they are available again. If Bushmaster addresses their deficiencies and builds a better carbine, with the features I want, I'll buy one. But I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long, long time for that to happen.

vanfunk
 
I'm sorry fellas, but I think the chance you are going to get a lemon with BM is rare. Rare enough that I would be willing to save my 500$ and take a chance. Christ you could run your bushy until one of these bolts break, and replace it with a better one, and still be saving money. Bottom line, at least in my opinion, Colt is not worth that much freaking money. Now if I was a LEO and could get a discount, maybe I would consider purchasing one. I mean damn, I was at a gun show a couple weeks ago and saw a NIB 6920 for 1599.00. Come on man, why would I want that when there was a perfectly good RRA a couple of tables down for 950.00, or the a bushy for 1000.00.

With that being said, I think I am going to purchase a Stag, but those LMT's are looking better and better, (which I might add have a very good rep as well)
 
Take a look on Tacticalforums.com website. There is a long thread written by folks who know better than you and I what makes a good AR. Search for the title AR15 deficiancies. Long story short, Colt makes the best AR for some very specific, quantitative reasons, the least of which is their gov't contract. Good luck!
 
Actually, Pat Rodgers is one of the folks that does know better than most of us. Didn't mean to include Mr. Rodgers in the "you and I" statement.
By the way, I own a RRA 9mm, but just as a indoor range toy. If my life depended on it, I would choose a Colt 6920.
 
das028,

If cost is the biggest factor in your decision making process, then Colt can't compete. And if your AR is going to spend most of it's time in your safe then you probably have made the best choice for your needs.

If you intend on using it hard, like in Pat's classes, or intend on taking it in harms way, then you will most likely wish you'd spent the money on a Colt.

Bart,
Thanks for looking up the Bushmaster info for me.

Jeff
 
ilmonster,

For what its worth, your right, I dont not crap about AR's compared to some on this board, lik Pat. And I also do not depend my life on one.

Just expressing my opinion, thats all.

But please dont tell me to buy I Colt just because they have a goverment contract. Honestly that doesnt mean anything to me. I mean if I use that reasoning, I might as well buy a M9 too!:barf:
 
das028, you're absolutely right. I didn't mean to say buy a colt (or any other product) simply because of a gov't contract (there's a frightening thought!). This specific contract though does specify what Colt, FN, etc. must do to make their product to spec - i.e. proof testing, magnafluxing, staking, 6,000 rd. torture tests, etc. Sorry for the confusion!
 
vanfunk said:
A comparison of a Colt 6920 and a Bushmaster "M4" would reveal the following:
Bushmaster marks their barrels "B MP" although not all of them are magnafluxed or proofed - only a small sample of each lot is sampled. Colt tests every barrel. The Bushmaster barrel will (likely) be a 1/9" twist barrel, not as versatile as the 1/7" twist on the Colt. Bushmaster has a habit (I've had 4 examples so afflicted) of over-indexing their barrels so that 20-25 clicks to the left are necessary to zero at 100 yards. The Bushmaster will not have the correct "F" height front sight base, ususally requiring that the front sight post be raised above the ears of the sight tower for a proper zero. Bushmaster does not Magnaflux and shot peen their bolts and carriers, or use the correct extractor insert. Bushmaster does not use the "H" buffer as Colt does, and the Bushmaster receiver extension is extruded and oversized compared to the Colt (which is forged and sized correctly). Bushmaster has a well-documented history of staking their gas keys poorly (again, I have had 4 that needed restaking out of the box). Bushmaster does not use double heat-shielded handguards as the Colt does. Colt has the TDP and assembles their product according to strict QC guidelines, Bushmaster seems to use their consumer base as a QA/QC testing bed. Again, for a range toy I really don't think it makes much of a difference, but I'd gladly pay more to get more when it comes to a defensive firearm. There's more to Colt than the little Horsie on the side, and no, they're not overpriced when you put the Colt up against the competition toe-to-toe, feature-to-feature.

vanfunk


That'd be great, if we weren't talking about Armalite here. Thanks for stopping by.
 
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