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Armed airline pilots

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Blackbeard, Jul 30, 2007.

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  1. Blackbeard

    Blackbeard Member

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    Saw this quote on someone's signature:

    I may be in the minority here, but I have to disagree. We go to great lengths to keep weapons off of the airplanes, it doesn't make any sense to deliberately put one there. The events of 9/11 were the result of surprise and planning, not weaponry. They did not destroy the WTC with their own bomb, they took ours (the planes), and all it took was a good plan and the element of surprise.

    The same can happen with an armed pilot or air marshall. Suppose five terrorists plot to take over a plane. One of them starts trouble by threatening the passengers. The pilot/marshall, sidearm in hand, goes to deal with the aggressor and gets jumped from behind by the four accomplices. Now they have a gun, and they still carry out the attacks.

    Guns on planes would not have stopped 9/11 because their plan would have been different.
     
  2. fletcher

    fletcher Member

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    The events of 9/11 involved a substantial amount of clever weaponry.

    Also, a marshall getting jumped is different than two pilots with guns locked in their cockpit. The latter is much more secure.
     
  3. M1 Shooter

    M1 Shooter Member

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    Possibly, but what if people with CCW permits were allowed to carry on board? If the terrorists have no idea how many people could be armed on the flight, it kind of puts a crimp in their plans. For all they'd know, everyone on the flight could be armed, including the flight crew. I think that would have served as an effective deterrent.
     
  4. The Law

    The Law Member

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    Agreed.
     
  5. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Once Upon A Time

    Back in the day, guns were common enough on planes.

    The pilots were, in fact, often armed.

    If you have a decent bulkhead and door to the flight deck and armed flight deck personnel, the goons trying to hijack the plane are confined to passenger space. They never get control of the aircraft.

    It should be mentioned that the airline with arguably the best security record in the business (no, not a U.S. airline) has armed pilots.

    What doomed the 9/11 planes was mindset. We had been indoctrinated, as a nation, for so many years to "just give them what they want and everything will be okay," that the combat mindset didn't finally appear until the Flight 93 people grasped that the indoctrination no longer applied.

    Given the somewhat revised understanding of what a modern hijacker might want with a plane, the mindset is no longer "just make sure nobody gets hurt" while acquiescing to the hijackers. The understanding is now more along the lines of, "if these bastards get control of the plane, we're all gonna die so, whatever it takes, neutralize them."

    I mean, the bad guy says "I have a bomb; if you don't give me the controls I'm going to blow up the plane," and you're just going to let him fly it? Oh, cool, now he gets to blow up the plane while killing hundreds or thousands more! So, instead, "he says he has a bomb -- get him!"

    I'm entirely okay with armed pilots.

    Hell, I'm entirely okay with armed passengers!
     
  6. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    Possibly, but what if people with CCW permits were allowed to carry on board?

    If all were that would scare me. How much training have they had? Did they qualify? How well can they shoot (not directly related to how much training they had)? Having a CCW doesn't make you a cop as is often repeated here.

    I was a Federal LEO for 27 years and always carried when I traveled by air. I like the idea of armed pilots. They have to take training at their expense in order to carry on the plane. Pilots and LEOs have had a lot more physchological screening. It might be more dangerous to have any CCW permit holder able to carry on commercial flights.

    If there was some vetting and training process I'd be all for it. Not anyone with a CCW. Having a gun is only part of the fight.

    What doomed the 9/11 planes was mindset.

    This is correct. The brave souls on Flight 93 didn't act until they had word of the attacks on the WTC.
     
  7. Noxx

    Noxx Member

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    Bingo.

    Before 9/11, it hadn't occurred even at the farthest reaches of the imagination that someone would hijack a plane for the express purpose of using it as a weapon. Hijacking had always been a political tool resolved by negotiation. The mindset was "Sit down and shut up, because to do otherwise might get everyone killed", no one realized they intended to kill everyone anyway, until it was far too late.
     
  8. MT GUNNY

    MT GUNNY Member

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    Pilots ; Air marshals, Prolly have training in what to do especailly Air marshals
    So for the 5 terroists senario ,Maybe it would be nice if there was two or more CCW holders aboard to asist the Air marshal, Im shure if this ever happens the Air marshal Knows who carries!

    So I think CC pasengers should be welcome.
     
  9. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Let's say I'm a pilot, behind a locked door with a handgun. And one, or two, or 5 or 10 guys are in the back of the plane with their box cutters.

    Worst case scenario, 200 passengers end up getting murdered by 10 guys with box cutters. None of the bad guys are making it to the controls of the plane.

    The plane keeps flying, no buildings get crashed into. A tragic event for sure, but in hindsight much better than what actually happened.

    A gun in the cockpit certainly could not have made that situation any worse than it turned out, could it?

    I agree with others about the mindset. Had the pilot's known then what we know now, I guarantee anyone without a seatbelt would have been in a world of hurt. Ever experienced bad turbulence on a plane? That is with the pilots trying to keep things nice and smooth. Imagine if they wanted to knock you on your butt. The mindset that said "cooperate and we will be OK" was (again in hindsight, I certainly fault none of those involved for acting as they had been trained to act) the greatest factor.

    I think the point of the Ron Paul quote is not that a gun would have come in handy, but that the idea of an armed pilot might have made the terrorists decide the plan wasn't going to work. We all say the same thing about gun free zones everywhere else. It is easiest for criminal to attack people in gun free zones. I think Ron Paul is just pointing out that from a criminal mentality a plane is a gun free zone.
     
  10. DragonFire

    DragonFire Member

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    A marshall's job may be different, but the pilot wouldn't/shouldn't ever go to the threat. Their duty is to keep the cockpit secure.

    Whether the pilots are armed or just have a secure enough door to keep hijackers out of the cockpit, if passengers were harmed even though the plane doesn't fall into the terrorists' hands, do you think passengers or their families would sue the airlines for not negotiating, or not relenting to the terrorists' demands? Would they win in court?

    I guess someone being able to smuggle a weapon on board is someone's fault, but not necessarily the airline's though. TSA?

    My feelings are that of course they will sue, but it would have to be shown to me (as a jurist) to be a case of clear negligence before I'd awared cash, but I guess I'm not the "average" jurist. I just don't think that most Americans would be willing to accept the injury or deaths of a relative few to ensure the safety of hundreds or thousands.
     
  11. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Well, the "no guns" rule really worked well ... :rolleyes:


    Don't worry, though - there will be guns. On the F-16 coming up behind :uhoh:
     
  12. BBQJOE

    BBQJOE Member

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    I liked the Kid from Brooklyn's idea.
    Just give everyone boarding the plane a Louisville slugger.
    Nobody's going to try anything when everyone on board has a baseball bat.
     
  13. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    I would love to see CCW allowed on flights, but I will add that I think being able to carry on a plane should require a different type of CCW, one with training for such a very different environment. Like knowing which parts of the plane can take rounds and which areas would result in a system failure. Also, defensive shooting on an airplane exponentially increases the odds of bystander injury in the event of a miss or overpenetration, almost to the point of gauranteeing it.

    So yes, I would love to see CCW on commercial flights, but I would fully support it requiring much more extensive training than normal CCW.
     
  14. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Well, we agree on something! :D

    And how, exactly, would the plans have differed? As I recall, there were Air Marshalls prior to 9/11, just not as any. How did the terrorists know that there wouldn't be one on their particular flight?
     
  15. Fatelvis

    Fatelvis Member

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    M1shooter, you hit the nail on the head. The airlines are just another "gun-free zone". :rolleyes: Or, as the enemy says, "target rich enviroment". Come on already, lets make evrywhere CCW friendly, and get it over with!
     
  16. pdowg881

    pdowg881 Member

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    I have to agree. A potential hijacker would be much more comfortable knowing that nobody has a weapon that will fight him. Now if he had reason to suspect he would be going up against a gun, he would think twice. But then people may argue over who gets a gun, and who is allowed as far as passengers.
     
  17. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    I'm in favor of of sealing the cockpit, and feeding it with its own air supply. Hijackers try to take over, pilots release a gas to knock everyone out until they can land. Minus any sort of reaction to the gas, no one gets hurt.

    I dunno, maybe such a gas isn't possible. Works in my mind though.
     
  18. M1 Shooter

    M1 Shooter Member

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    You know, that's actually not a bad idea! I kind of like it as a matter of fact!
     
  19. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Yeah, like in that theater in Russia :rolleyes:
     
  20. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    TallPine, but it works so well in the movies.:D

    If anyone had the internal strength to fight back, 9/11 would never have transpired.

    Give me a pistol, load it with Sim, you and your friends play hijackers. I will show you, over and over how a pistol would have stopped 9/11.

    If arming people does no good, why do FAM have guns?:confused:
     
  21. James T Thomas

    James T Thomas Member

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    baa, baa

    Your premise is one that is given here on THR often before.

    "They will just take your weapon away from you and use it against you!"

    Following that "logic", we might as well begin disarming the US Marines, and so it goes.
     
  22. thumper723

    thumper723 Member

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    Easy solution.

    Have the Air Marshall with a portable O2 mask.

    Depressurize the cabin. Nite-Nite to the Goblins.

    TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness is about 30-45 Seconds at FL360)

    FL360 = 36,000 feet, which is around where most airlines cruise.

    Dump pressurization, cabin goes night-night, and the goblins wake up with cuffs on them.

    Its what I have briefed my crew on in case of unruly passengers. (no air marshals or FA's for me)
     
  23. kellyj00

    kellyj00 Member

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    my pa, a fella who's been an aircraft inspector for many decades, had the craziest, smartest idea I've heard on this subject.

    Seperate the cockpit from the cab with an air-tight seal....(not new technology to airplanes, everything is air tight) and give the pilots the ability to 'gas' the cab if need be. Nothing like a bunch of laughing gas to stop a BG dead in his tracks. You could even use tear gas, or some sort of knock out gas or something. Hell, I'm no anesthesiologist...but I'm sure they aren't all that harmful.
     
  24. kellyj00

    kellyj00 Member

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    there's something about depressurizing a plane full of innocents that makes me cringe. I thought the air was so thin at 36000 feet that the pressure difference would boil one's blood, just like in a vaccum.

    I'm not a pilot, I don't know anything about it however. Just know what I heard back in grade school.
     
  25. kellyj00

    kellyj00 Member

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