Armed men approach your parked car

[50centbmg]

What can you do in a situation like this? Try to drive away? Draw gun and prepare to start shooting?

Attack trial opens with 'worst night'
BY ALFONSO A. CASTILLO
Newsday Staff Writer

January 24, 2007

It took all the courage he could muster for a 21-year-old volunteer firefighter to admit to a female acquaintance that "he had a crush on her," then offer to buy her a cup of coffee, a prosecutor said in a Riverhead courtroom yesterday.

So began not only a lasting relationship, but also "the worst night that they could ever possibly imagine," Suffolk Assistant District Attorney Kate Wagner said in her opening statement at the trial of one of three former Bay Shore High School students charged in a horrific rape, beating and robbery.

Terrance Terrell, 18, is charged with first-degree rape, first-degree sodomy and other charges for the Dec. 3, 2005, Bay Shore attack. The graphic details of the incident drew several gasps, tears and outbursts in a crowded courtroom yesterday.

Newsday is not naming the couple because they are the victims of sex crimes. Their relatives declined to comment.

"You can't listen to that story and not be moved. This is heavy stuff," Terrell's attorney, James Saladino of Riverhead, told the jury following Wagner's remarks. "The question is going to be: What connects Terrance Terrell to this crime?"

Bay Shore High School's Class of 2006 homecoming king Douglas Payton, 18, and Reginald Dugue, 19, have both pleaded guilty to charges. Saladino said despite evidence tying both his "sadistic" co-defendants to the crime, the case against Terrell hinges on his confession, which Saladino said "is not credible."

Wagner said the couple drank their coffees and chatted while parked at the scenic waterfront cul-de-sac of Saxton Avenue when the three teens pulled up in a car driven by Payton.

"They got their masks out ... They got their guns out ... They taped over the license plate," and they approached the couple's car, tapping at the window with a firearm, she said.

"Get out! Get out! Get out!," the masked teens shouted to the couple, Wagner said. They pistol-whipped the male victim, then ordered, "Strip ... Take all of your clothes off," she said.

The male victim disrobed to his boxer shorts and, "in one fell swoop," Wagner said Dugue and Terrell ripped off the woman's two T-shirts, bra, and sweater.

The men then forced the woman, 23, to take off her jeans. They next dragged her at gunpoint to their car, where Terrell forced her to perform oral sex on him.

Dugue then raped and sodomized her, Wagner said. "With a gun to her temple, she did what she was asked," she said. Payton restrained her date, forcing him to watch.

Breathing heavily and mumbling through gritted teeth, the woman's brother threw his glasses on the ground as he listened to the account.

Wagner said the three suspects made away with some cash from the victims, and a pair of car speakers.

"They split the proceeds," Wagner said, turning to the defendant. "Mr. Terrell got 40 bucks."

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/l...33jan24,0,1948892.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

 

[Manedwolf]

If you're in a car, you're in control of at least a ton of metal that can move.

If people would stop panicking and screaming and rememeber that, we might see more stories of "victim runs over attempted carjacker" and less of this.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Well if your already in the car, start the engine get in gear and get the hell out of there. The largest weapon you have is the car. Depends though how the suspects car is positioned relative to theirs if they were blocked in that could be a problem.

If people would stop panicking and screaming and rememeber that,

Unfortunetly people are not trained how to react some have fight in them and others don't.

 

[kungfuhippie]

Good reason to have a gun.

People like these criminals have a special place in hell reserved for them

 

[Tbu61]

I totally agree with the above.

If you don't have a gun, use the next best thing, granted a car is a little slower than a bullet, but there is a lot to be said about running over a felon.
React with aggression.

Surrender to a criminal in most cases, is "Permission" to commit the crime.
The outcome generally doesn't get any better.

Society's mindset used to be to be compliance when faced with criminal activity, I'm pretty sure that made criminals happy. That seems to be changing lately, probably something to do with 9-11....

Anybody that comes my way looking for an easy mark will be disappointed, I don't negotiate with criminals, they get ONE chance, which is more than they were going to give me.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I wonder what would happen if they did it to someone that was carrying.

 

[GRIZ22]

Quote:

If you're in a car, you're in control of at least a ton of metal that can move.

Good advice if the engine is alreday running. Can you put the car in gear faster than the BG can pull the trigger? I might seem to be complying and try it.

Quote:

I wonder what would happen if they did it to someone that was carrying.

Could you draw and take out 3 armed BGs before they can get you?

Given the car or fight with a handgun I'd probably try to use the car first and maybe go to the pistol second. I'm not saying you should surrender but acting like you're complying would put the BGs at ease as that is what they expect.

If the victims' situational awareness was at a higher level they may have been able to be prepared to resist.

 

[Jeff White]

How many people who advocate drawing their weapon and firing have ever, even once actually attempted to do that from inside their car? There are all kinds of problems associated with being in a gunfight while you're seated in a vehicle.

Start up and drive away.

Jeff

 

[James T Thomas]

love is blind

The lovers lanes and lookout points have long been scenes of crimes, it's too bad these young people were either not "aware" or had decided that "it wouldn't happen to them."

Last night I watched ABC, 48 Hours; "Mystery," The "Sweet Heart Murders."
Young couples who were oblivious to the dangers that occur everywhere.
The "sheeple" we live amoung are well and have not changed for the most part. And will not change for that matter either.

I think blissfully ignorant people like this will always be under assault, and I do not think that us who exercize our freedom to be armed will make much of a difference with the criminals other than they may simply execute the male first before their other crimes.

Unless the public decides it has had enough and changes our laws so that swift, sure and public viewed punishment is administered, this lawlessness will just continue. And of course it feeds the gun control agenda and the media agenda so that even if changes did occur the public would not get the NEWS of it.

The moment the other car pulled up, the driver should have started his engine, and repositioned his car (read "parking your car rear end first thread), and placed it for an unrestricted exit.
I am surprised that the two were not murdered -the "punks" must not have had much previous jail time.

With that in mind; had I been either one of them, I would have went down fighting. Armed or not -not, since I believe Bay Shore denotes LA LA land.
I would not have submitted as they did. They were stupidly spared death.

Does anyone remember Charles Bronson? My kind of guy.

 

[tnieto2004]

Poor woman.. because of low life scum .. her life will forever be changed.. I hope those punks rot in a prison cell until the day they die..

 

[Zundfolge]

I don't care how well armed or trained you are, sometimes you're just screwed.




Anyway, the strategic/tactical mistakes this guy made is that he set himself and his ladyfriend up in an easy to be victimized position.

Not paying attention to whats going on around them, parking in such a way that they couldn't easily escape, parking in such a way that they couldn't see trouble coming ... these are the lessons to be learned here.

I fell bad for the two of them and really hope the wheel of kharma crushes these thugs hard.

 

[Charles S]

How many people who advocate drawing their weapon and firing have ever, even once actually attempted to do that from inside their car? There are all kinds of problems associated with being in a gunfight while you're seated in a vehicle.

Agreed. I took a tactical handgun class in which we shot in an around vehicles. The instructors position was that in almost every situation shooting is not the best solution. The instructor taught us to shoot from inside the vehicle, how to draw inside the vehicle, how to exit the vehicle with a gun and not get tangled in your seatbelt ext, but also believed that just about the only time one shot be shooting from inside the vehicle was when the vehicle had been disabled and you did not have time to exit.

I must admit that it was some of the most fun I have ever had in a class.

 

[Soybomb]

Start up and drive away.

While I'm sure this is generally great advice, would it have applied here? It sounds like the couple was distracted and generally unaware of their surroundings and was unaware of the threat until the slide was tapped against their window. Would attempting to start the car to drive away still be advised if someone is on the other side of your window with a gun as the story implies happened to these people?

 

[Cosmoline]

The inside of a car is a death trap, but if you're stuck with it so be it. Given the bad guy has already gotten within touching distance, you're probably going to get killed. But your worst option is to just sit there. Either get out shooting or start the car and pile drive them, running them down and escaping. Don't sit in the car and don't follow their instructions unless it will improve your tactical position.

Would attempting to start the car to drive away still be advised if someone is on the other side of your window with a gun as the story implies happened to these people?

Yes, or getting out and running away. But staying and complying is not an option. If you're bound to be a target, you want to be a moving target. Most goblins can't hit squat, and you will at least have a roll of the dice and a weapon of sorts.

Once you see that drawn piece, raise the black flag and show no mercy. Do everything you can to get out of there and play any trick you can come up with to get yourself in a better situation. If you have a chance to kill the man or his friends, take it!

 

[Odd Job]

@ Jeff White

You are right.
It is difficult to start shooting from within a car, particularly if the gun is holstered, the windows are up and possibly the seat belt is on.
In 2002 I was fortunate to attend an anti-hijacking course in South Africa. This was run by a member of the Flying Squad and he took us to a remote range and parked a vehicle square in the middle of it. 'Targets' (T-shirts on frames) were positioned all around the vehicle, and we fired a variety of weapons from inside the car, as passenger and as driver, and as combined passenger and driver.

I tell you what, anyone who hasn't done that should try it. You will be surprised at how confined that car becomes as soon as you start shooting. Try it with weak hand shooting too, and you will discover that standing in an orderly line at the range is nothing like firing out of a car, even if you manage to get a leg out and open the door for support.

As for starting the vehicle up and driving away, let me add this: a goblin who is close to your car and armed will easily outmanoeuvre you AND shoot you if he has half a noodle's worth of shooting experience. I have X-rayed many people who thought they could start the car and get away. None of them ran the goblin over, but many of them took hits.
It doesn't mean I advocate doing nothing, it just means you have to understand your limitations and realise that the outcome of any fancy manoeuvres may not be in your favour.
In fact I rate the parked car scenario as one of the worst to be in. You are restricted, you don't have good angles of fire, and you are pinned (for want of a better word).

 

[tnieto2004]

It is easy to say what he/she should have done .. the truth no one knows what they would have been able to do in that situation.. to blame the young man who was taking a girl on a date for not acting properly is rediculous.. it is the fault of the scum who ruined their date and scarred these people for life .. there is not always a heroic move to save the day no matter what many think they are capable of .. it turns my stomach and the thought of helplessness these young people felt .. I wish with all my heart that the scum who did this live a long horrible life behind bars ..

 

[Cosmoline]

tnieto2004, this is the S&T forum. The whole point is to parse over what could have or should have been done.

 

[tnieto2004]

I understand .. I guess I just get frustrated at the thugs that do this kind of stuff .. I feel that it is so unfortunate that situations like this happen and I let emotions get involved .. I understand the point of Strategies and Tactics .. In this situation .. There doesnt seem much the young man could have done without losing either his or her life ..

 

[ZeSpectre]

I view it like this.

If a bad guy is a non-shooter (essentally "posturing" with their gun and has no intent to shoot) you can start the car and drive away because they won't shoot. Since the couple is alive the badguys were obviously non-shooters.

If a bad guy is a shooter then they probably plan to shoot you, either now as you try to escape or later after they've had whatever fun they were planning with you, your girl, your dog, etc. Personally I'd rather go trying to take 'em out and skip the "fun" part.

Now how do you know which type of bad guy you've got? You don't. But even if the bad guy is a shooter you are probably better off trying to run.

In theory most of the car is going to deflect bullets at least slightly from their intended trajectory and may be enough to cause misses. Regardless of that, anything other than an instantly fatal shot is still going to give you enough time to get the damned car moving and headed towards help.

Sitting there, especially with multiple assaliants, seems like suicide.

 

[tinygnat219]

Move and move fast...

I like the posts about the car as a weapon. Distance and speed are your best allies at that point. Then drive to a police station, or friendly 2nd Amendment supporter house and you are good to go.

 

[Baba Louie]

There doesnt seem much the young man could have done...

Maybe yes maybe no. We do know he did give in and it cost him dearly.

Lesson Uno. Be aware of your surroundings, especially while near female. Every male species (well, a lot of 'em anyway) tend to fight for intimate relationship w/ female of species or see her taken by other dominant male. Fogged up windows (from drinking hot coffee on a cold Long Island eve and chatting, you know) are not conducive to exterior situational awareness, even if the windows are not fogged up (and you know what I mean). I had to learn that lesson as a teenager by twice (not once, but twice) having very gruff Police Officers bang on my parked car and shine a flashlight into the window illuminating a... delicate moment, as it were. I certainly was not thinking of anything outside the car and, after reading this article, am profoundly grateful that it was only a Police Officer, that it was 1973 and it was an Independence MO (Eastern Jackson Co.) back road.

Lesson Dos. Even tho' bad guys took precautions to mask faces and auto tags, if you ARE lucky enough to get your car started and underway, should your car happen to brush against their car, it'll leave enough damage to be noted during an investigation. (should you live through any gunfire directed at you).

Here's hoping that Dougie, Reggie and Terry all do hard time and never have to personally learn and experience the terror they put these two young victims through during their own stay in prison. To think otherwise wouldn't be taking THR. (I slip now and then, from time to time, so I edit heavily what I write herein).

If you have kids who're beginning the whole driving and dating scene, talk to them. Please.

 

[David904]

I don't care how well armed or trained you are, sometimes you're just screwed.

Amen. You cannot constantly live life with the pin straightened and the safety off, and the slack on your trigger taken up all the time. It'll grind you down and it just isn't a healthy mindset (outside of a war zone.)

However, in a situation like the one described, I'd rather take my chances and fight back than to immediately surrender the safety of the woman under my care at the time.

 

[Soybomb]

Yes, or getting out and running away. But staying and complying is not an option

Agreed. My initial thinking would be to feign compliance as a way to get out of the car and gain mobility. I would think there would be increased distraction for the attackers that way also. I can't even begin to guess the number of times someone could pull the trigger on a drawn gun while i reach for the ignition, start the car, and shift it into gear.

 

[hankdatank1362]

.

 

[thexrayboy]

Unfortunately by the time this couple was aware of the presence of the three miscreants virtually all viable options were no longer feasible. When you are in a parked car and someone is standing outside your door with a gun unless the engine is running and the car is in gear you have no chance at getting the vehicle in motion without being fired upon if the perp was inclined to shoot. Situational awareness is the key to virtually all strategy and tactics issues. You can think, plan and discuss the what ifs of theoretical situations forever and be caught with your pants down (sometimes literally)
if you don't keep a close eye on your environment at all times. By the time these two were aware of the bad guys they were at the mercy of them. In a 3 armed men vs 1 unarmed man and 1 unarmed woman the choices become woefully few in terms of what to do. Moral of story is keep your eyes peeled at all times and avoid places where people can sneak up on you or pin you into a corner whenever possible. Prevention is 1000 times preferable to reaction.

Hopefully these three will learn for themselves what it means to be victimized.
Since they obviously have no empathy for other members of society they
need to spend some time in a more "structured and restricted" society.