salt_river
Member
The previous thread was closed. I'm new here, so maybe there was a reason but I could not find an explanation anywhere. Not that I'm owed one, just sayin'.
The Federal Aviation Regs, to my knowledge (~20 years flying planes for fun, as an instructor, and commercially as a line pilot, instructor, and check airman), do not forbid anyone from arming an aircraft. In fact, there has been a P-51 restored with all six working 50 cal guns. It seems like the ATF, not the FAA, applied the brakes and prevented the airplane from actually flying with operable machine guns. Bummer.
Aviation Regs
I am the first to admit that I'm not an expert on the matter of arming airplanes. I'm sure there are people who are, but I ain't one of them. I'm not a lawyer either. I do have a pretty strong working knowledge of the federal aviation regulations and I've never seen a regulation that specifically forbids armed airplanes. In fact, if an aircraft manufacturer were to design and have certified an airplane that required a working firearm as a piece of required equipment on the type certificate data sheet (TCDS), it would be illegal to operate the airplane without a functioning gun...technically...of course. Never mind the practicalities of actually getting to the point of certifying a general aviation aircraft with such a requirement.
The FAA has a really nice catch-all regulation know as "careless and reckless operation" (91.13) that they can use to take action against anything they don't like. Accidently blasting an open hangar with prop wash while maneuvering a little Piper Cub on the ramp technically violates 91.13. If there is a fed nearby who decides to go after you for it, he can probably cause some trouble for you. That's not even an extreme example.
The "dropping things" regulation (91.15) may also apply but has some built-in relief for those who take reasonable precautions not to damage property or hurt people.
Neither one of these regs strike me as a rule prohibiting armed airplanes. They simply say that you can't operate an aircraft recklessly -or- cause anything to depart the airplane without taking reasonable precautions to avoid injury or damage to anyone or anything on the ground. The problem I see is that both of these regs are really, really subjective.
All this to say: it makes sense to me that the ATF would be the organization to ground the plane, not the FAA.
Now, there may be a reg that specifically prohibits armed airplanes. I've never seen it or heard of it. But it might exist. If it does, post it here. I will have learned something!
Other Stuff
The FAA has actually issued a legal interpretation that aerial hog hunting would be illegal, but only because the helicopter operator in the proposed scenario was not a licensed air carrier! In fact, FAA legal council says in this interpretation:
Aerial culling is actually a common thing and is not, to my knowledge, illegal when all of the right boxes are checked.
The Federal Aviation Regs, to my knowledge (~20 years flying planes for fun, as an instructor, and commercially as a line pilot, instructor, and check airman), do not forbid anyone from arming an aircraft. In fact, there has been a P-51 restored with all six working 50 cal guns. It seems like the ATF, not the FAA, applied the brakes and prevented the airplane from actually flying with operable machine guns. Bummer.
Aviation Regs
I am the first to admit that I'm not an expert on the matter of arming airplanes. I'm sure there are people who are, but I ain't one of them. I'm not a lawyer either. I do have a pretty strong working knowledge of the federal aviation regulations and I've never seen a regulation that specifically forbids armed airplanes. In fact, if an aircraft manufacturer were to design and have certified an airplane that required a working firearm as a piece of required equipment on the type certificate data sheet (TCDS), it would be illegal to operate the airplane without a functioning gun...technically...of course. Never mind the practicalities of actually getting to the point of certifying a general aviation aircraft with such a requirement.
The FAA has a really nice catch-all regulation know as "careless and reckless operation" (91.13) that they can use to take action against anything they don't like. Accidently blasting an open hangar with prop wash while maneuvering a little Piper Cub on the ramp technically violates 91.13. If there is a fed nearby who decides to go after you for it, he can probably cause some trouble for you. That's not even an extreme example.
The "dropping things" regulation (91.15) may also apply but has some built-in relief for those who take reasonable precautions not to damage property or hurt people.
Neither one of these regs strike me as a rule prohibiting armed airplanes. They simply say that you can't operate an aircraft recklessly -or- cause anything to depart the airplane without taking reasonable precautions to avoid injury or damage to anyone or anything on the ground. The problem I see is that both of these regs are really, really subjective.
All this to say: it makes sense to me that the ATF would be the organization to ground the plane, not the FAA.
Now, there may be a reg that specifically prohibits armed airplanes. I've never seen it or heard of it. But it might exist. If it does, post it here. I will have learned something!
Other Stuff
The FAA has actually issued a legal interpretation that aerial hog hunting would be illegal, but only because the helicopter operator in the proposed scenario was not a licensed air carrier! In fact, FAA legal council says in this interpretation:
While FAA regulations do not govern the use of firearms aboard a civil aircraft for purposes of aerial hunting, we note the proposed aerial hog hunting operation would be subject to the provisions of 14 C.F.R. §91.13 [my note: see a few paragraphs up], which prohibits the operation of an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner.
Aerial culling is actually a common thing and is not, to my knowledge, illegal when all of the right boxes are checked.
Last edited:
so if flying your own plane over your own land, probably never be an issue. But you have an accident or fly to a public airport and forgot to remove something, you probably lose your PPL.
