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armor piercing bullets

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Bezoar, Aug 26, 2007.

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  1. Bezoar

    Bezoar member

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    The fed says citizens not to have armor piercing ammo, But the major companies still sell the "green tip" penetrator round in 223 nato.

    Most of us would agree that a close range hit with 308 nato fmj does penetrate alot of metal sheeting youd find in a house or car. why is that legal to own?

    And why are we allowed to have machined BRONZE bullets for muzzleloaders? Bronze was the best anti armor slug developed for ww1 machineguns.

    Im just really curious here.
     
  2. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    Nor armor piercing handgun rounds.
     
  3. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    Ummmmmmmm the M855 5.56 MM ROUND IS NOT ARMOR PIERCING!

    I wish people would quit thinking it was designed to penetrate armor.
     
  4. Cannonball888

    Cannonball888 Member

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    As mentioned above green-tip is NOT armour peircing. Black-tipped is, like the 30.06 AP or the 7.62x25 AP (handgun round) my brother-in-law has in Ukraine. Only handgun AP is illegal here.
     
  5. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    And the US military has developed actual AP 5.56 rounds.

    M855/SS109 rounds are ball rounds
     
  6. Bad Penny 03

    Bad Penny 03 Member

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    SS109 = "enhanced penetration"
     
  7. I LIKE IT!

    I LIKE IT! Member

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    Thats funny i can recall buying some(online) in 762x39(black tip)

    If I can get it I will. FTW
     
  8. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    It still isn't designed as a true armor piercing round.

    Its considered ball ammunition by virtually everyone
     
  9. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...metal sheeting..." That isn't armour. A .22 will penetrate sheet metal.
    "...fed says citizens not to have armor piercing ammo..." You can't have 7.62 NATO AP. .30-06 AP is fine for some strange reason. It's on the ATF site.
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm
     
  10. Regolith

    Regolith Member

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    Sunray....its because somebody figured it'd be cool to make a pistol in .308. Once it could be used in a pistol, 7.62x51 and .308 AP rounds were nixed.
     
  11. tulsamal

    tulsamal Member

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    ATF originally exempted the 30/06 M2 AP because there was literally thousands of tons of it for sale. Including from DCM. Every gun club shot it at matches because it was so cheap. Now comes the trickier part. There is nothing illegal _at all_ with using AP bullets to reload your own AP ammo for 7.62 NATO. There is lots of pulled AP bullets out there. (Although a lot less than there used to be.) It is perfectly legal (with the Feds anyway) to reload those bullets into another rifle that uses .308" ammo. You can reload it, shoot it, possess it. Just don't take loaded rounds to a gunshow and try to sell it! Legal to sell the pulled bullets. Not legal to sell it reloaded into 7.62 NATO ammo.

    As always, I don't make the laws, I just try to explain them!

    Gregg
     
  12. tulsamal

    tulsamal Member

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    That was the excuse used to stop importation of Chinese 7.62x39 AP. I've never heard that given as a reason for the NATO round. Maybe it could be used to stop _importation_ of any AP NATO round. But you can buy an Encore handgun right now in 30/06 and that hasn't caused the ATF to try to change the rules.

    Gregg
     
  13. McKnife

    McKnife Member

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    I have Armor Piercing 7.62x54R !!!! about 1000 rounds of it....silver tip
     
  14. Sharps-shooter

    Sharps-shooter Member

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    what kind of armor (or armour) are we talking about? Body armor? IIa? Rifle plates? tank armor? Jousting armor? I think the term armor piercing is just about useless until you know what kind of armor we're trying to pierce.
     
  15. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    The only armour it's piercing is the lawmakers' egos.
     
  16. Geno

    Geno Member

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    Good point. I saw an add at Ammo to Go for AP 12 gauge, claiming the steel portion of the slug could penetrate 1/4" of steel. Seems to me that isn't much.
     
  17. LawBot5000

    LawBot5000 Member

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    5.56x45 and 7.62x51 are both exempt from the law against armor piercing ammo. You can even make a pistol and shoot both calibers. There is a specific exemption for them after the generic definition of armor piercing (specifying jacket and core materials, etc).

    It has nothing to do with real armor piercing ability. Steel core 7.62x39 wasn't AP either but it matches the LEGAL definition which is all that matters when you are discussing whether something is legal.
     
  18. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    As others have mentioned, green tip is not AP; it actually penetrates less at close range than regular M193 55gr FMJ. It has better penetration at 600 yards than M193, but not anything approaching tungsten-core AP.

    The Federal AP ban covers only handgun calibers, .223/5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308/7.62x51mm. It bans bullets for those calibers made of very hard materials that would give them AP-level penetration.

    Lead-core .308 FMJ is not in the same penetration class as tungsten-core 7.62x51.

    Muzzleloader bullets, .30-06, etc. are not covered because they are not .223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, or .308/7.62x51.

    They're not exempt (they are two of the three rifle calibers the law covers); it's just that the ban is based solely on bullet construction. Practically all centerfire rifles will penetrate Kevlar body armor like Saran Wrap, so any law that banned all ammunition that will penetrate armor would ban all centerfire rifles. Which is, IMHO, why the anti's keep trying to pass a performance-based standard, to give the AG power to ban any rifle caliber he/she wishes.
     
  19. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...1/4" of steel...that isn't much..." It's not. Mind you, that 1/4" steel plate isn't necessarily hardened either. Marketing is a wonderful thing.
     
  20. coat4gun

    coat4gun Member

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    Lots of mis-information of the subject of AP legality

    Federal law relating to Armor Piercing ammo is in Title 18 Chapter 44 sections 921 and 922, I believe that while most of todays ammunition could be used in a handgun.. hence meeting the following test given it has the penetrator core, Federal law only restricts manufacture or import. Your State Law many vary from this.


    Meeting the definition of AP ammunition only restricts the "manufacture or import" of said ammunition. It does not restrict the sale (as long as the seller is not the manufacturer), nor does it disallow the ownership or purchase of AP ammunition.

    The definitions of Manufacturer and importer are as follows... Manufacture does not include reloading for personal use by definition.

     
  21. RoadkingLarry

    RoadkingLarry Member

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    Sometimes you have to watch out for the term armor piercing. Gotta define armor. I can load a cast lead bullet in my Marlin .30-30 and punch a hole clean through 1/4" mild steel plate from 50 yds. what do you suppose that would do for body armor?Do we call that cast bullet round of .30-30 AP? because it sure as heck would penetrate police body armor rated for pistol.
     
  22. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    BTW, IIRC, the armor in question for the federal prohibition wasn't personally worn armor, it was armor as in tank/truck/APC.
     
  23. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    it was BODY ARMOR.

    The Federal restrictions on armor piercing ammunition were passed in 1986 and 1994.
     
  24. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Legislative history of the 1986 ban on armor-piercing handgun ammunition:

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

    The law was extended to cover .223/5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm by a BATFE administrative decision in early 1994, precipitated by (or ad hoc justified by) the Olympic Arms fiasco.
     
  25. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    The laws may have been passed then, but the laws don't define "armor" in armor piercing ammunition, just the makeup of the bullets. Lots of rounds will penetrate body armor, even rounds that are not AP. It simply depends on the armor type, diameter, velocity, shape, and makeup of the bullet, etc. A .44 Magnum 240 gr. HSP (1320 FPS) will penetrate flak, IIa, and Level II armor, but is not considered armor piercing. Level IIa and II are the most common rating soft body armors sold for concealable armor such as worn by cops, security folks, and some non-LEOs.
     
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