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Army unit told to turn in their HK 416's

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Slater, Mar 11, 2008.

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  1. Slater

    Slater Member

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  2. sprithitler

    sprithitler Member

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    Somebody in army command must be on the payroll of more entities than the armed forces.
    Frankly, get real guns. I shot several thousand rounds of 5.56 in "my" AK5 (FN FNC) in the army without a single failure to cycle, even when not cleaned for more than 1000 rounds. I shot several thousand shots with "my" AK4 (HK G3) while in the Swedish home defense without it ever failing to cycle, even when not cleaned for several hundred rounds. How difficult can it be to realise that your soldiers deserve reliable accurate hard hitting weapons?
     
  3. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Something tells me somebody needed those weapons more than the advanced warfare group trainers,,,,,,,,,,,,
     
  4. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    That sucks, my M16 never malfunctioned on me but I also took rigourous care of it. I would clean it allways just to pass time, so I maybe put a little more time into my weapon than most. still would like something not in service for 40 straight years, could use an update that doesn't involve batteries.
     
  5. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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  6. TEDDY

    TEDDY Member

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    brain wave?

    study what the gov gave the soldiers from civil war to present.
    the only guns that were right were 45/1911-bmg1919A1-BAR-GARAND.
    THE OLD, muskets-trapdoor-krag-springfield.think of what there actualy were at those times.
    now we are getting foreign designs.
     
  7. Darthbauer

    Darthbauer Member

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    And what are you talking about?
     
  8. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    We have gotten foreign guns for a long time, don't kid yourself.

    In the Civil War, you had British made Enfields, and French Lefaucheux "pin-fire" pistols and the KRAGs were Norwegian.

    For the Spanish-American War, there was the Model 1896 Krag-Jorgensen Rifle

    Need I go on?
     
  9. DPris

    DPris Member

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    Wasn't there somebody named Garand who was originally Canadian? :D
    Denis
     
  10. Ash

    Ash Member

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    And our earliest muskets were based on the French design.
     
  11. R127

    R127 Member

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    I agree Sprithitler. Unfortunately most people don't have any real experience with other rifles to compare it to. A hatchback economy car seems like a real hot ticket for hauling cargo if you've never experienced a van or pickup truck. It's kind of like the British with their SA-80. America will always have some form of M-16.

    As far as somebody being on the payroll that has been a huge problem in our country for a very very long time. One could make a good case that the current aggressive foreign policy is little more than the product of a desire to generate money and political power for certain special interests. You have to wonder, especially after I bought I don't know how many milled Bulgarian AK-47's plus a billion rounds of ammo for the Iraqis and now I have to buy them M-16's and who knows how much ammo?

    ... and do you think any of those AK's which are little used and basically SA M7 Carbines will end up getting milsurped so I can at least have a chance to pay for what I bought? Nope. They won't even be sent in as parts kits. The ammo? If it isn't blown up it will almost certainly be dumped into the ocean along with all those AK's I had to buy. The same thing will happen with the new M-16's I'm buying for the Iraqis if/when they get replaced. I'm not holding my breath for CMP M-14. As I recall most of those were sent to Haiti to fuel civil disorder and general slaughter rather than sent to the gun shop around the corner to fuel some good old fashioned fun on the local shooting range.

    Next time I have to buy guns for foreigners I'm buying some scuba gear too.
     
  12. Ash

    Ash Member

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    R127, there could never have been CMP M14's because once a machine gun always a machine gun. That bit has always been nothing more than wishful thinking - regardless of the Clinton administration's destruction of M14's.

    Ash
     
  13. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    :rolleyes:
    Army takes HK416s from special unit

    By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
    Posted : Tuesday Mar 11, 2008 14:37:32 EDT

    The Army has stripped the Asymmetric Warfare Group of its weapon of choice — the Heckler & Koch 416 — saying that its mission requires the unique outfit to carry the standard issue M4 carbine.

    The decision reverses a policy that allowed the AWG to buy 416s instead of carrying M4s when it was established three years ago to help senior Army leaders find new tactics and technologies to make soldiers more lethal in combat.

    Members of the AWG have declined to comment on the issue, but sources in the community told Army Times that the unit fought to keep its several hundred 416s, arguing that they outperform the Army’s M4 and require far less maintenance.

    In a response to a March 6 Army Times query, the Army acknowledged initial approval of the AWG’s move to the 416.

    “The AWG is empowered to procure, on a limited basis, select non-standard equipment to assist in identifying capability gaps and advise on the development of future requirements. To this end, the Asymmetric Warfare Group did purchase H&K 416 rifles,” said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Martin Downie.

    “The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures. In this capacity, the use of the standard issue M4 is required. In support of this mission set, the decision was made to transition to the M4 and the AWG is now turning in its H&K rifles.”

    This is the latest round of controversy surrounding the M4 since late November, when the weapon finished last in an Army reliability test against several other carbines.

    The M4 suffered more stoppages than the combined number of jams by the three other competitors — the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the H&K 416.

    Army weapons officials agreed to perform the dust test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army Special Forces units to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Since then, Coburn has questioned the Army’s plans to spend more than $300 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009 rather than considering newer and possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.

    Army officials have downplayed the test results, maintaining that soldiers using the M4 in combat praised the weapon in a recent study by the Center for Naval Analysis.

    But this isn’t the first time the M4’s performance has come under fire.

    U.S. Special Operations Command decided nearly four years ago that it wanted a better weapon than the M4. After a competition, it awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace all of the command’s M4s.

    But even prior to USSOCOM’s decision, the Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that its piston operating system reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.

    The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Weapon experts say the M4’s system of blowing gas directly into the receiver of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication and causes excessive wear on parts.

    The AWG followed Delta’s example when it stood up in March 2005 to advise the Army’s senior leadership on how to identify and counter emerging threats on the battlefield. With Army approval, the unit bought several hundred 416s for its members to carry when they deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots.

    Many senior sergeants in the AWG were angered that soldiers in the unit had to turn in their 416s, a process that began last fall, said a U.S. Military officer with knowledge the special operations and AWG communities.

    “They were outraged,” he told Army Times. “It’s a reduction in capability. It’s a waste of money that was already spent, and it makes the job more difficult since [the M4] is much more maintenance-intensive.”
     
  14. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    The US has used foreign designs since the founding of the Republic. The muskets procured for the various Colonial Militias were based almost exclusively on the English Brown Bess. The first muskets produced by Springfield were just monkey copies of the French 1763, later the pattern was the French 1777. In fact, the French '77 and the US 1842 have interchangeable bayonets. The U 1855 Rifle Musket was closely copied from the Enfield to include caliber, rate of twist and progressive depth of the rifling that ammo was interchangeable. The Krag Jorgenson was from Norway and it used a bayonet of Swiss design. The 1903 was just a 1898 Mauser in a different dress. We even paid Mauser royalties for certain features. The M60 was a kludge of the BREN, Lewis and MG42. The M14 was inspired by the FG42.
     
  15. Number 6

    Number 6 Member

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    The Army Times is not known for its unbiased reporting style. It has consistently glorified HK designs over the M4, and has been consistently a detractor of the M4. A couple things the article does not mention.

    The AWG is tasked to develop tactics and to test gear for the Army. Having a different rifle does not meet that requirement.

    Other groups that use the 416 still have theirs, because their mission favors that design.

    The dust test while interesting does not really prove much. What the data does say is that if you are in a dust storm for 2.5 hours, don't clean your weapon, and then expend 6000 rounds, your M4 will only work 98.6% of the time. The dust test was interesting, but it does not prove that the M4 is a bad system.
     
  16. Ash

    Ash Member

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    I would think the M14 was inspired by the M1 Garand...

    Ash
     
  17. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    I guess I should clarify; The concept of a selective fire infantry rifle was inspired by the FG42
     
  18. BattleChimp Potemkin

    BattleChimp Potemkin Member

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    Maybe someone in accounting got wind of how much the 416 costs. That can nix alot of decent programs that any military can field. What is the difference between the 416 and the M4 really? Its an expensive M4 with more gadgets and parts. I had no problems with my issue rifle, so whats the big deal? Maybe HK wanted more for the rifles than what we are willing to pay (they give generous discounts, so Ive heard, to govts, but maybe they took advvantage of it). I would like to know more about this. Maybe someone upper in the AWG got the data they needed about the HK weapons, making the soldiers turn them in to issue them another test weapon, using the M4 until the newest weapon is issued? Is this what the AWG's mission is to field test under actual situations various weapon systems?
     
  19. R127

    R127 Member

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    Yeah I know but it isn't the gun's fault. They could at the very least be parted out same as all those AK's we had to buy that are going to be thrown away or who knows what, sent to help fuel strife in Rawanda or something based on the M-14 experience. I may be the only one who is but I'm awfully sick of supporting this monkeybusiness.
     
  20. strangelittleman

    strangelittleman Member

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    One of the AWG's main missions is to train the Army's light infantry units in the formation and employment of SKTs ( Small Kill Teams). This similar to the Marine Corps H/K (Hunter/Killer) team concept from the 80's.
     
  21. Ash

    Ash Member

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    Well, the M14's were parted out. For the longest time you could get genuine M14 parts through the CMP for much less than commercial prices.
    SMLE, my statement about the M14 and Garand were tongue-in-cheek. The AVT-40 is another select-fire infantry rifle with the same layout as the M14.

    Ash
     
  22. R127

    R127 Member

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    I knew some were parted out but I thought that was a long, long time ago. From what I heard from the pro-CMP M-14 community was there were still something like up to maybe 60,000 M-14's in storage in the US. The last big movement of them I was aware of, other than the ones that were scrapped, were the ones sent to Haiti.

    I don't think we'll ever see hide nor hair of those 416's but it does make me wonder if all the old A2's are going to hit the market in parts form? AFAIK all the M-16's going to Iraq and Georgia are all brand new. I think but I'm not sure that Israel gets new stuff too.
     
  23. Ash

    Ash Member

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    I think the M14's are now virtually gone - a result of the Clinton administration's selling or destroying them.

    Ash
     
  24. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    And there could never be a Congressionally mandated company that sells rifles to people without going through an FFL either.

    Oh wait, there is......Congress said "do it".

    You mean maybe Congress could say "that whole once a machinegun thing? stop doing that....."

    But it's a moot point now since Clinton had them all melted down.
     
  25. evilelvis

    evilelvis Member

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    I'm a civilian with a non gas piston AR15 and one with the gas piston design...and with my puny limited arm chair knowledge, I like my gas piston one a lot better. Far cleaner 10x more rounds shot through it. Oh and it was Wolf ammo too.

    So what could possibly be the real reason to pull the 416s?
     
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