Arnold is a traitor. Don't let your gunmaker be too

Discussion in 'Activism' started by The_Antibubba, Oct 14, 2007.

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  1. kludge

    kludge Member

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    In.

    But how do you spread the word when people don't care (even the gun owners) and the media is heralding the new law, and won't present any alternative views?

    What if we could find some out-of-state electric company to refuse to sell any electricity to California until they repealed the law.

    Or a natural gas/gasoline company. Or Three.

    Yes, it will hurt.

    What's the alternative?

    In other words...

    What's the modern day equivalent of a tea party?
     
  2. AF_INT1N0

    AF_INT1N0 Member

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    ^^^^^^ A wine party!
     
  3. QuickDraw

    QuickDraw Member

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    This is the best response of all!:D
     
  4. fantacmet

    fantacmet Member

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    Not to mention, does anyone else see the potential for abuse here? Say you are getting out of your car to get a bite to eat after a day at the range. A piece of brass accidently hits the ground and goes unnoticed by you for whatever reason. A cop finds it. CRAP! Yer screwed buddy. They wanna know why you were shooting in town and decide to nab yer toys for illegal discharge of a firearm.
    My heart really goes out to all the california gun owners for this one. Well provided you actually faught against it. If you didn't then, you reap what you sow.
     
  5. fantacmet

    fantacmet Member

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    Not to mention, does anyone else see the potential for abuse here? Say you are getting out of your car to get a bite to eat after a day at the range. A piece of brass accidently hits the ground and goes unnoticed by you for whatever reason. A cop finds it. CRAP! Yer screwed buddy. They wanna know why you were shooting in town and decide to nab yer toys for illegal discharge of a firearm.
    My heart really goes out to all the california gun owners for this one. Well provided you actually faught against it. If you didn't then, you reap what you sow.
     
  6. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    On the flip side of the evidence planting, there is a reduction in credibility as evidence of cases which don't have stamps. If you need a stamp then the ballistic fingerprinting (i.e. all the fired cases that come with so many guns) are in the opinion of an "expert body" not reliable. Suddenly defendants being faced with "your shells have the same imprint as shells found at the scene of the crime" arguments can say "but according to California such matches are insufficient and microstamps are needed. Beyond that, if a non-stamped shell is found and you have a stamped gun... that can be used to plant the suspicion in a jury that the shell was planted by someone with a ready source of unstamped shells. Who qualifies? Law Enforcement Officers!

    Exactly! And that's not counting the full LA metro as SoCal people count it. La Metro is 13,006,527, then Riverside/San Bernardino (commonly called "suburbs" of LA) adds 3,648,841 and that's not even opening the San Diego and related areas can of worms. That's 16.7 million to 20 million people in a very small area. Texas has only 23.5 million and to a surprising extent they are spread thinly across a rather large state.

    If you want something really scary go back over the last 20 years. You'll find that Texas is growing *very* rapidly with almost all of the growth being urban. If the growth curve continues much longer Texas will overtake California as the most populous state, and guess what? Those large urban areas will have most of the problems SoCal has... UNLESS you can address the basic problem which is a lack of positive contact in urban areas.

    You want to fix the problem? Take a Californian shooting. I've done it and changed minds. Take city folk, boys and girls from whatever city and state, shooting. It's a slow "one at a time" process... but guess what that's true of all real activism.

    Oh, and:
    Go back to when I was growing up and consider that my idea of "where" may be fairly broad (I lived all over SoCal and consider the whole area my "home turf"). It wasn't long ago that Texas had less than 12 million people total.
     
  7. Paradiddle

    Paradiddle Member

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    I think the California is a much larger firearm market then most of the non-Cali residents give credit. In fact, while I can't find much about it on the Internet, I remember reading that California might be the largest firearm market in the US. It would jive with the largely conservative nature of SD, OC, and the Inland Empire, the population, and the income here. Not to mention what naturally happens when you tell someone they can't have something - they want it more.

    I did find this, which shows more firearm transfer applications in California then any other state that recorded such data. Page 77.

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ssprfsm03.pdf

    I know several very active gun owners in California, but you are right due to media hysteria from other states problems (Columbine, Virginia tech, that Amish killing, the last college killing, etc. etc.) we are a somewhat private bunch. In fact I blame other states lack of good parenting for these killings and MY states ridiculous gun laws!

    It also seems that many of the top competitive shooters in near every class live in California - certainly several of the top ISPC/IPDA/3 gun guys are in So Cal and shoot at a local range. I think a lot of technique and technology comes from competition and these shooters. We are a pretty voracious and gutsy group - look at the inroads we've made with off list lowers - albeit a lame excuse for the ban we live with, but it's still spits in the face of our DOJ.

    The NRA is also concerned with the downstream affects if you read their site they have some news links about Microstamping.

    I think other states should boycott our products - when you've all starved from lack of fruits and vegetables because your climate doesn't grow them well - I can buy cheap ranch land out of state ;)

    I'm a California native and I admit I'm considering moving more and more recently, and perhaps one day I will. I do think other states have problems, most of them being the weather, but the lack of Constitutional rights in this state regarding firearms is staggering. Please don't complain when I buy a house in your neighborhood for full price with a portion of my equity money - I don't complain when you move into my neighborhood because your job market sucks or it's too cold in your state. :)

    We all should be concerned that a method proven to NOT work could become a major issue for firearm makers. I think once Glock, S&W, etc. tool up for MS that all of you will have to purchase them – unless someone figures out a cheap way to keep two lines running in a factory. As far as companies cowing to our laws think of the BS that Ruger pulled with magazines and also S&W with their internal locks – imagine a company as proud and “strong” as S&W cowing to lawmakers and ruining their guns!

    While Arnie may not be a traitor he is most certainly a hypocrite. How can a person make a living off of the promotion and glamorization of violence and firearms be anti-gun - it's absurd. He should focus on things he knows - like banning performance-enhancing drugs from sports - since he is a former roid guy he'd be an expert.
     
  8. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    It should be noted for those not willing to follow the link that only 16 other states chose to submit data. For example, the state of Oregon alone recorded tranfers amounting to a third of California's.

    David
     
  9. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    Antibubba,

    Don't blame Zundfolge for what I wrote! Even he doesn't deserve that.

    David
     
  10. wolf13

    wolf13 Member

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    A big problem is that I do not see companies offering two different types of guns. It is not economically sensible. Companies don't really care about you, or your cause, they care about the bottom line. The bottom line will show that if they have to spend all this money on the MS then all their guns will be MS guns. It is inefficient for them to have two types of the same gun comming of the assembly line.

    An example of this is cars. I don't know how many of you are into cars, but CA has the strictest controls in the nation. A company has two real options, follow the national laws regarding smog and stuff, or follow CA much stricter ones. They follow CA, because it makes more sense.

    This is not something that will just affect CA, but something that will affect everyone. Simple economics will show it is more productive for them to make 1 type of each gun, the CA legal one.
     
  11. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    wolf,

    For years car makers didn't make all their cars meet CA emissions laws. Some still don't. There were "49 state" and "California legal/50 state" cars. The only reason so many cars today are "50 state" is that federal emissions standards went up.

    If you bought a car 10+ years ago in CA it was common to see a line item on the price tag being "California emissions compliance" or similar. Californians paid an extra surcharge of $500 or sometimes a lot more. That has faded but it isn't completely gone. Example: My 2006 motorcycle is a "california" model. If I'd bought it in any other state I would have gotten an extra half a gallon of fuel tank capacity and saved a couple pounds of added junk. Why is the difference noticeable? Motorcycles are still allowed to be very primitive (carbs) but California doesn't allow them to be quite as primitive as everyone else.

    Microstamping a gun is inherently time and tooling intensive. You've got to take each gun and engrave it in special ways. It isn't a stage you normally go through. That means special, expensive, equipment. And California guns already get special treatment... the gun makers don't want to ship non-CA guns to CA. To buy enough equipment to mark every gun you produce really doesn't make sense for a manufacturer. What manufacturer is going to buy enough equipment to handle 50,000 guns per month/year/whatever when they could instead buy enough to handle 10,000.

    No, the problem isn't CA laws hitting you directly. It is CA laws being used as a model for laws that do apply to you.
     
  12. qdemn7

    qdemn7 Member

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    I would like to see every gun manufacturer refuse to sell new guns in California at all. Including and ESPECIALLY to Law Enforcement.

    If companies:

    Refuse to sell to Law Enforcement,
    Refuse to allow their Distributors outside the state to sell to Law Enforcement under penalty of losing their Distributorship,
    Refuse to honor the warranty of any guns coming from California after the date the law goes into effect,
    Refuse to buy guns back from Law Enforcement,

    Then just HOW pray tell will Law Enforcement get their guns?

    Is that spite? Yes it is!

    It's LEOs wanting this nonsense, even though it can easily be defeated. So you're right I'm going to deny them weapons. Maybe they will realize they need to quit trying to pass nonsense laws and enforce the ones already on the books.

    And FINALLY it seems these days too many cops think they are superior to the average citizen already. They have forgotten they work FOR us. It's time to disabuse them of those ideas.
     
  13. kludge

    kludge Member

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    The alternative proposal is that we write the gun maker and say we'll buy a gun if they refuse to sell to California LEOs.
     
  14. wolf13

    wolf13 Member

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    Ed Ames,

    I realize that there are still some companies that have a 49 state legal car and a CA car. I also realize there is a slight chance that they will make 2 different kinds of guns.

    I believe it will come down to exactly how much the equipment costs them as well as how much longer they take to make. If they find a way so this technology is not as hard as it seems to be, then I do see them running all teh guns through the same process. It makes it easier for them in the long run, unless the law gets taken away.

    It will be very interesting to see what happens within the next 3 years. I was already planning on buying a handgun the day I turned 21, but now I just may have to buy more than 1.
     
  15. Jim Diver

    Jim Diver Member

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    qdemn7: Simple. They will get their guns from the National Guard prolly. The Gov will order that the NG sidearms be distributed to LEO.

    That or PRK will open it's own exempt firearms manufacturing plant. God... that will be a nightmare gun.. 100% designed by politicians.:what: It would be the worst self defense firearms made... a prison zip gun would be preferable.
     
  16. Diggers

    Diggers Member

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    The mircostamping process, from what I saw on YouTube and wickipidia, looks like it will be an after production process. So the gun makers are not going to have to buy new equipment at all.

    Its done with a laser pulse that cuts microscopic letters and numbers in to the firing pin and on the body of the gun some where.

    And it sounded to me like it will be an out of house process where the guns are sent off to this Todd guy (who invented this process) and he will add the microstamping to the guns that are going to be sent to CA.

    BTY there are at least two other states looking at making this a law in their state also.
     
  17. glennv

    glennv Member

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    I hope this guy chokes to death on his dinner.
     
  18. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    For those of you who want to contact the firearm companies...

    Springfield Armory:
    Phone: 1800-680-6866
    FAX: 309-944-3637
    Email Address: [email protected]


    GLOCK (USA), Inc.
    Phone:1 770 - 432 1202
    Fax: 1 770 - 433 8719
    No Email Address:

    Heckler & Koch
    Phone (205) 655-8299
    Fax (205) 655-7078
    Law Enforcement: Email [email protected]
    Commercial Email: [email protected]

    SIG SAUER, Inc.
    Phone: 603-772-2302
    Fax: 603-772-9082
    Email Address: http://www.sigsauer.com

    Smith & Wesson
    Phone: 1-800-331-0852 (USA)
    Email Address: [email protected]
    Fax: 1-413-747-3317 (USA)

    Beretta U.S.A.
    Phone:(800) 636-3420
    No Email Address:
    No Fax:

    Kimber:
    Phone: (800) 880-2418
    No Email Address:
    Fax: (914) 964-9340

    Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC.
    Phone: 1-800-883-6229
    Email Address: :Law Enforcement: [email protected]
    Technical Support: [email protected]
    Customer Service: [email protected]
    Company Information: [email protected]
    No Fax:

    Colt Defense LLC
    Phone:1-800-241-2485 OR (860) 232-4489
    No Email Address:
    Fax: (860) 244-1442

    Rock River Arms:
    Phone: 866-980-7625
    No Email Address:
    No Fax:

    Lewis Machine &
    Tool Company, Inc.
    Phone: Phone:1.309.787.7151
    Email:[email protected]
    Fax:1.309.787.7193

    Stag Arms:
    Phone: (860) 229 9994
    Email: [email protected]
    No Fax:


    Taurus International MFG, Inc. USA
    Phone:(305) 624-1115
    No Email Address:
    Fax:(305) 624-1126



    Remington Arms Company, Inc.
    Phone: 336-548-8700
    No Email Address:
    Fax: 336-548-7801

    O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc.
    Phone: (203) 230-5300
    Email Address: [email protected]
    Fax: (203) 230-5420

    Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.
    Phone: 888-220-1173
    No Email Address:
    Fax: 928-541-8850




    Mailing addresses:


    J. W. Dorsey, VP
    GLOCK, Inc.
    6000 Highlands Parkway
    Smyrna, GA 30082

    Ron Cohen, CEO
    SIG SAUER, Inc.
    18 Industrial Drive
    Exeter, NH 03833

    Leland A. Nichols, President
    Smith & Wesson Corp.
    2100 Roosevelt Avenue
    Springfield, MA 01104
    [email protected]

    Dennis Reese, CEO
    Springfield Armory, Inc.
    420 West Main Street
    Geneseo, Illinois 61254

    Martin Newton, CEO
    Heckler & Koch Inc.
    21480 Pacific Blvd.
    Sterling, VIRGINIA 20166-8903

    Patrick McDonald, VP
    Beretta USA, Corp.
    17601 Beretta Dr.
    Accokeek, MARYLAND 20607

    Alice Poluchova
    CZ-USA
    P.O. Box 171073
    Kansas City, KS 66117-0073

    Michael O. Fifer, CEO
    Ruger Firearms
    Lacey Place
    Southport, CT 06890

    Kook Jin Moon, CEO
    Karh Arms
    130 Goddard Memorial Dr.
    Worcester, MA 01603

    Carlos Murgel, CEO
    Taurus International MAnufacturing Inc
    16175 NW 49th Ave.
    Miami, FLORIDA 33014
     
  19. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Refuse to do business with any company that either does business with California or with any other company that does business with a California company. Boycott the U.S. Postal Service, FedEx, UPS, and any other company that ships to or from California, and quit your job if the company you work for has anything to do with California.
     
  20. Nix

    Nix Member

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    you people are looking at this the wrong way... all you will do is make it harder for law abiding californians to get weapons... if you want to boycott them... say

    "if you help in the development of technology that will allow microstamping we will boycott you"

    because the whole california thing revolves around IF microstamping can be done
     
  21. GaryGGR

    GaryGGR Member

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    Liberals will love you.

    :banghead:

    I f gun manufactures stop selling guns in California because of the Micro Stamping law, there will be a stampede in every liberal state in the union to intact the law. They can stop guns sale in their state and put gun manufactures out of business.

    Gary & Storm
     
  22. SilentArmy

    SilentArmy Member

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    This is political backscratching at its finest! Proof positive that with the proper political ties, you can sell america anything whether they want/need it or not. Nothing shy of a true boycott will extend the message to manufacturers. But really folks, America has not pulled together for a true boycott in my lifetime and not the last 100 yrs (that I have read of) so what makes anyone think this could be different? I believe that any Manufacturer that values its future in this country should refuse to supply CA with it's products. Civilian and LE alike. Leave the Kali cops with what they have got or let them sharpen sticks. What will it take for people to decide they have had enough? I respect the Barrett company for their stance! If only the rest could be patriots so the people can be awakened as it is the People who have to effect change.
     
  23. PavePusher

    PavePusher Member

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    Rather than have the gun manufacturers shun Cali, have them charge higher rates for guns sold to all government agencies except school shooting teams and hunter safety education. A price tag of $50-100,000 per weapon should subsidize the micro-stamping quite handily. And insist on selling the government only microstamp guns. Modification of the items by the state will incur monetary penalties, void the warrentee, and result in confiscation of any state weapon thus tampered with.

    By the way, Hello! First post here, I'm on OCDO under same username on occasion. Been lurking in the hedges here for a while now, finally registered today.
     
  24. jeepmor

    jeepmor Member

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    You pay my bills and you have deal.

    Geez, some peoples' kids.

    Umm, he's the one who got the ball rolling in the first place. It has little to do with legalities, it's somebody knowing he's on the government gravy train if he can get it to go through. This is not the first time something of the "if I can pass a law, they'll have to come to me for the materials, work, whatever, has happened."
     
  25. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    STI's stance is no longer a matter of conjecture:

    Of course, as I embrace my inner cynic, I question the overall impact of someone dropping out a market they didn't serve in the first place. I can't remember when STI was on CAL DOJ's roster but they evidently were at some point in the dim and distant past.
     
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