Why would anyone so believe?
As seen here, some people can be hard to stop.
- Thread starter CDW4ME
- Start date
- Status
wagonburner
member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2019
- Messages
- 179
How can one possibly make such an assessment from that video? Do you know that no bullet had, let’s say hit the spine and glanced off, which a larger caliber may have severed? Alternatively, how can you say the perp would have been similarly stunned by the multiple impacts if a smaller caliber was used?
Short of doing a rerun and shooting the guy again, we just don’t know how another caliber would have performed.
wagonburner
member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2019
- Messages
- 179
Why would anybody not? I get much better results on hogs and bears using larger & more powerful calibers than smaller calibers. Both get the job done, but they run less when I use a thumper.
My take on it is the larger and more powerful caliber caused more disruption to the vital organs.
No one can, but from other known facts, we can reasonably conclude that there is no basis for believing that other service loads would necessarily behaved differently with identical entry wound locations and angles.
The question was why anyone would believe that smaller bullets would be more effective.
wagonburner
member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2019
- Messages
- 179
Because smaller bullets are less effective on hogs and bears than larger, more powerful rounds.
wagonburner
member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2019
- Messages
- 179
“Other known facts”?
There are no facts that support smaller, less powerful being as effective as larger more powerful rounds. You’re making an assumption with no basis.
wagonburner
member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2019
- Messages
- 179
Duplicate
Last edited:
George P
member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2018
- Messages
- 7,772
You "skinny guys" can get away with that........us old fat guys can't....................Must be stuck at home. What?
Yes, a Glock 19/23 size pistol is easily concealed under a untucked polo or button up shirt, plaid, stripe, or pattern helps break any slight bulge.
I've had concealed carry for 25+ years.
I'm retired and can dress as I choose, so limitation of "work attire" is not a issue anymore.
I've not carried a smaller primary than Glock 19/23 size pistol two+ years and that includes two mile walks with my dogs, and when moving stuff (boxes / furniture) to a new house.
Glock 23 strong side IWB in "summer attire"
View attachment 909026
View attachment 909027
Glock 21SF AIWB in "summer attire" - its there.
View attachment 909028
Good Ol' Boy
Member
Caliber isnt as important as shot placement and round count, within reason.
Two to the body and one to the head should be an integral part of training for anyone that trains. While a volley of well placed COM shots is good this video shows that it doesnt always stop the threat in a timely manner.
Capacity should more of a concern than it currently is overall in the SD world but some folks you just wont convince no matter the real world footage or reads.
Two to the body and one to the head should be an integral part of training for anyone that trains. While a volley of well placed COM shots is good this video shows that it doesnt always stop the threat in a timely manner.
Capacity should more of a concern than it currently is overall in the SD world but some folks you just wont convince no matter the real world footage or reads.
C-grunt
Member
I've seen people soak up some serious shots and still be up and mobile. Especially if they are on drugs.
Happens mostly with handguns but I've seen it with rifles too. I've not seen it with shotguns (when using buckshot or slugs) but my experience with shotgun shootings is a good deal smaller than handguns and rifles. I did see a burglar take a 12 gauge 00 buckshot load to the chest at bad breath distance and run about 10 feet before he collapsed. But the others were instant drops.
I shot a guy with a 55 grain hollwpoint 223 in the chest at 40 yards. Round entered his left chest, went through his lung and through his heart. Guy then charged at me for about 5 yards and raised his gun at me again. I shot him again in the lower chest, the round went through his liver, the right diaphram, and then lodged in his spine. He finally fell down and then talked to me for a solid minute before he died. He was on A LOT of meth.
I know I've talked about it before here but I've seen a guy take a 7.62 NATO through the chest, lower tight back entrance and exited his left nipple.we found that guy 30+ minutes after the firefight still alive. Our snipers shot a IED trigger man off a roof. The M118LR hit him in the side lower chest and exited his left abdomen, which it split wide open causing several feet of intestines to come out. That dude ran probably 150 yards before he died.
Happens mostly with handguns but I've seen it with rifles too. I've not seen it with shotguns (when using buckshot or slugs) but my experience with shotgun shootings is a good deal smaller than handguns and rifles. I did see a burglar take a 12 gauge 00 buckshot load to the chest at bad breath distance and run about 10 feet before he collapsed. But the others were instant drops.
I shot a guy with a 55 grain hollwpoint 223 in the chest at 40 yards. Round entered his left chest, went through his lung and through his heart. Guy then charged at me for about 5 yards and raised his gun at me again. I shot him again in the lower chest, the round went through his liver, the right diaphram, and then lodged in his spine. He finally fell down and then talked to me for a solid minute before he died. He was on A LOT of meth.
I know I've talked about it before here but I've seen a guy take a 7.62 NATO through the chest, lower tight back entrance and exited his left nipple.we found that guy 30+ minutes after the firefight still alive. Our snipers shot a IED trigger man off a roof. The M118LR hit him in the side lower chest and exited his left abdomen, which it split wide open causing several feet of intestines to come out. That dude ran probably 150 yards before he died.
.38 Special
Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2006
- Messages
- 7,323
There apparently are three ways to stop a fight.
The first and most effective is to interrupt the CNS. Apparently it does not take a very big bullet to do that. Perhaps we should all be practicing that shot, regardless of the cartridge we use.
The second is to bleed the bad guy out. That takes time, regardless of mechanism, and that time may be used by the bad guy to kill us.
The third is to physically prevent the bad guy from following through with his attack. I am impressed by the knife fighters who have taken up the idea that we should be attacking connective tissue rather than vasculature.
I wonder if gun men should think about breaking down the pelvis. It isn't exactly what John Wayne would do, but in the amoral fights of today, it might be the appropriate action.
The first and most effective is to interrupt the CNS. Apparently it does not take a very big bullet to do that. Perhaps we should all be practicing that shot, regardless of the cartridge we use.
The second is to bleed the bad guy out. That takes time, regardless of mechanism, and that time may be used by the bad guy to kill us.
The third is to physically prevent the bad guy from following through with his attack. I am impressed by the knife fighters who have taken up the idea that we should be attacking connective tissue rather than vasculature.
I wonder if gun men should think about breaking down the pelvis. It isn't exactly what John Wayne would do, but in the amoral fights of today, it might be the appropriate action.
The example of the cop and 45 acp is often used to show that larger calibers can fail to stop.
Okay, but that does not lead me to the same conclusion that the cop made, 45 failed may as well go with 9mm. Nope.
Get both.
13 + 1 with Glock 23
13 + 1 with Glock 21SF
15 + 1 with Glock 22
15 + 1 with Glock 20SF
This seems good advice for military training, where the purpose is to kill. However, we have for years been advised that for civilian self-defense our purpose is to "stop the threat," not to kill. If, after a successful (bad guy down, number and severity of victims minimized) SD encounter, we land in a courtroom, documenting that form of training would hand the opposing counsel on a platter the argument, "See, the defendant has been itching for years to kill someone, and finally saw the opportunity."
That argument is a dangerous emotional hook for the jury in any criminal or civil case against a self defense shooter.
FFGColorado
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 1,129
NOT saying it can't be done. I can 'carry' my Glock 17 too..I also have a cross draw holster for my Uberti/Beretta BirdsHead revolver. BUT 'stuck at home' meaning another caliber discussion complete with a video. Great that you have a choice that works for you. Not only carry but also fun to shoot(it IS fun to shoot, yes?), reliable, what you consider important to you BUT I know guy who has a CCWP, and a REALLY nice CZ..does he carry it?Must be stuck at home. What?
Yes, a Glock 19/23 size pistol is easily concealed under a untucked polo or button up shirt, plaid, stripe, or pattern helps break any slight bulge.
I've had concealed carry for 25+ years.
I'm retired and can dress as I choose, so limitation of "work attire" is not a issue anymore.
I've not carried a smaller primary than Glock 19/23 size pistol two+ years and that includes two mile walks with my dogs, and when moving stuff (boxes / furniture) to a new house.
'Nope, it's just so dern big", plus, "we live in such a safe area..no need"...
BUT, put 5 people in a room and ask abut caliber/gun/capacity to carry, get 2 or 3 dozen opinions.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Great thread with good discussion without getting into the 9 vs 45 thing and the mag dump vs shot placement.
My personal experience as a soldier ( medic) and cop in a major northern city is limited to 3 incidents with the following take away
1 45 to the head stops anything
2 357 is good but reload is problematic
3 9 mm means practice shot placement.
So that said, my EDC is a 1911 or a CZ 75. YMMV
My personal experience as a soldier ( medic) and cop in a major northern city is limited to 3 incidents with the following take away
1 45 to the head stops anything
2 357 is good but reload is problematic
3 9 mm means practice shot placement.
So that said, my EDC is a 1911 or a CZ 75. YMMV
Sure there are. Where have you been?
We are about 25 years from Marshall and Sanow's books claiming that certain bullets would give "one shot stops" 90 percent of the time.
9mm vs .38 Special
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-vs-38-special.19837/page-2
Unfortunately, it has been stated that Marshall and Sanow were being compensated by ammunition companies, and you really don't know if what they put out was truth, or advertising!
However, the more I have read, and the few animals I have shot, have convinced me that if it lives and breathes, and you make it bleed enough, it will stop living and breathing. All you are doing with a firearm is poking holes in something, and if the bleeding is not severe enough, and the individual is determined enough, the situation will take a longer to end than people have been trained to believe in movies and TV Westerns.
9mm vs .38 Special
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-vs-38-special.19837/page-2
Unfortunately, it has been stated that Marshall and Sanow were being compensated by ammunition companies, and you really don't know if what they put out was truth, or advertising!
However, the more I have read, and the few animals I have shot, have convinced me that if it lives and breathes, and you make it bleed enough, it will stop living and breathing. All you are doing with a firearm is poking holes in something, and if the bleeding is not severe enough, and the individual is determined enough, the situation will take a longer to end than people have been trained to believe in movies and TV Westerns.
Last edited:
Pudge
Member
Nor is volume of fire.
It is important to understand the concept of "shot placement" in the context of handgun wounding.
It is not a simple function of precision shooting. Because the critical targets cannot be seen by the shooter, the shooter cannot shoot at them. They are hidden within the body, and they are moving in three-dimensional space.
The shooter shoots at the moving body, hoping for the best. Whether or not a bullet happens to hit a critical body element inside is largely a matter of chance.
More shots will tend to increase that probability.
That should explain what we see in the video rather well.
Each shooting encounter is different. Sure, there are a couple well documented cases of people who absorbed half a dozen rounds,
or more, and it didn't immediately put them down. Took them from 2 to 20 minutes to fall down. So it's not unheard of. Especially if somebody is willing to throw their life away. Most folks get shot, once or twice, their priorities change, when they want to live, for more than 7 minutes.
I'm also sure, that SOMEBODY has a video of some guy, who soaked up 10 or 15 rounds, stayed in the fight for five more minutes,
and then lived to tell their grandchildren about it. But I haven't seen THAT video, yet...
or more, and it didn't immediately put them down. Took them from 2 to 20 minutes to fall down. So it's not unheard of. Especially if somebody is willing to throw their life away. Most folks get shot, once or twice, their priorities change, when they want to live, for more than 7 minutes.
I'm also sure, that SOMEBODY has a video of some guy, who soaked up 10 or 15 rounds, stayed in the fight for five more minutes,
and then lived to tell their grandchildren about it. But I haven't seen THAT video, yet...
Yes indeed.
Where and at wh t angles a person is hit varies, as does the number of hits.
The physiological and psychological conditions of the person hit also vary.
There are no certainties.
That may be--or not.
I'm not willing to bet my life on "most".
- Status
