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Assess this recent in-the-news defensive shooting incident (Houston)

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by unclenunzie, Jan 7, 2023.

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  1. unclenunzie

    unclenunzie Contributing Member

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    https://abc13.com/houston-robberies...essner-and-bellaire-southwest-crime/12663715/

    The above link is a relatively brief local Houston news report which includes security camera footage with sound, showing an armed robbery in progress and subsequent shooting to stop by a patron inside. Only the armed robber was fired upon and hit. My personal opinion is this is a good shoot given the totality of the known circumstances, and the patron did well, but did leave the scene. As reported the police are looking for the shooter for questioning. I prefer not to speculate as to why the patron left.

    Mods I think this fits here, but please move as required.
     
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  2. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    From the article

    Therein lies the rub.

    They have a photo of him and his vehicle. Unless he was a random traveler passing through the odds are they will identify him.

    The smartest thing he can do (IMO) is retain an attorney and turn himself in.
     
  3. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    My anticipation is that the person dining (with his buddy across the table) felt in his gut this was imminently going to become a murder scene of various innocent restaurant patrons…so he elected to shoot. .

    My sense is he might NOT have made that same decision, for example, if it was wide-open outdoor dining and the criminal gunman was rapidly sprinting down the street far away from the people he had just robbed. His assessment probably was that they were still just trapped fish in a barrel at that precise time.

    I concur he should retain counsel and turn himself in to authorities to yield as positive an outcome as possible.
     
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  4. unclenunzie

    unclenunzie Contributing Member

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    The patron should contact the police, imo. But apart from leaving (as all the other customers did) I think his actions were justified, just from watching the footage.
     
  5. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    When the robber was shot, the robber still had his gun arm and hand outstretched ready to shoot* at anyone. When he walked "toward the door" he could have been going for the guy in the left corner by the door, or the customer on the far right under the TV, or may have been ready to turn around one more time, etc.

    I can't understand the Spanish that the Taqueria owner was saying, so all I have to go by is the English translation that ABC13 is throwing at us. ABC13 says the robber was leaving, but it's probable that the robber was going after the remaining customers that he walked past when he entered the restaurant .

    Not to mention, if anyone thinks that man with the worn out 40+ year old truck has the wherewithal to put an attorney on retainer, well they ought to start a GoFundMe on his behalf.

    *Fake gun, but nobody knew.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023
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  6. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I don’t think they are super sleuths. That “ ‘70’s to ‘80’s “ truck couldn’t have been made after 1977 because Ford went to square headlights in ‘78 and the 7th generation came out in 1980 with a completely different body altogether.

    I agree with shouldn’t have left and turn yourself in. There are probably more lime green Lamborghini’s registered in Harris county than 70-77 red Ford trucks, especially with distinguishing characteristics like that one. They must not be looking very hard…
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
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  7. Milt1

    Milt1 Member

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    The shooter may be in a ton of trouble as the perp was apparently leaving posing no threat at that time to the shooter so it’s not a case of imminent threat to the shooter or anyone else.
     
  8. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    ^ that seems like speculation.

    What if the shooting in the video didn’t occur and when the bad guy got to the door, he locked it and turned back around. Might be a little too late for action at that point and your indecision cost you your only opportunity at living for more than a few seconds longer. Of course that too, is speculation…

    Actually impossible with the information we have but they were acting on what they knew at the moment, not what we know, now that it’s over.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  9. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    Silly me.
    I always thought that a man walking around while threatening people with a gun is a man walking around while threatening people with a gun.
    I guess that he's no threat if he's doing it while walking away from somebody that he has just robbed - while walking toward other people that he hasn't robbed yet... .
     
  10. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    If you watch a copy of the video that isn't chopped up with idiotic chattering by talking heads, the perp wasn't :just leaving". He was pacing back and forth, circling the room erratically. What might have been can never be known for certain. But we can know he wasn't "just leaving" by video evidence. We can know that several seconds before he had threatened yet another patron with his pistol. How many times does a dude have to point a gun at people before he's a legitimate threat? Our perp was beginning a third time around the room when he was shot.

    Leave this guy and his pickup truck alone.
     
  11. hannstv

    hannstv Member

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    The customer that did the shooting will be identified, but unless he has some other legal issues, he will skate on the shooting of the robber. Thank goodness for Texas. His best course of action is to lawyer up and contact the police.
     
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  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    "What if" won't enter into it.

    One may not employ deadly force because of what someone has done.

    This one's a little different. An SD claim looks questionable, but this happened in Texas, where Code Section 9.42 addresses deadly force to prevent the taking of property--under limited circumstances.

    Unfortunately for the shooter, flight is an indication of guilt.
     
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  13. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Not something previously done, but something he is currently doing. Pacing the room pointing a firearm at people. You conveniently omitted my statement that he was, on video, beginning another trip around the room.
     
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  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I see him departing.
     
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  15. GNP

    GNP Member

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    The robber's gun was extended towards the customer sitting by the door. I can guess the plan of action for the DA in Houston but if I wound up on the jury (impossible, I know, but theoretically) guy would have one "Not Guilty" vote in the bag already. There is a case in Monroe LA that happened a couple of days ago in which a clerk at a dollar store shot and killed a robber who was in the process of leaving the store (and also wounded a customer), he has been charged with manslaughter.
     
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  16. GNP

    GNP Member

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    And that is nothing more than speculation.
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Heading toward the door, having already taken the property of the customers.... For an SD case, believing that the man might not have been departing would not suffice. Speculation that he might turn around and "begin another trip around the room" among persons who had already been robbed would not help the shooter,

    Section 9.42 may be the determinant.
     
  18. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    As long as the robber is in the establishment he is a deadly aggressor. He's an imminent and unavoidable danger to anyone and everyone on the premises until he exits.
     
  19. HarryB

    HarryB Member

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    If you've seen the full video, when the perp is down, the defender advances and continues to shoot--including a final shot in the back of the head. That is going to be an issue, as well as leaving.

    What started as justified may have escalated to excessive

    Link to video
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1611808197316075521
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  20. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    That unfortunate innocent patron in the black polo shirt, seated in upper-left corner, arms raised straight up, with robber's gun pointed straight at him…was undoubtedly thankful this mystery man bravely intervened.
     
  21. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Not likely. Not around here.
     
  22. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Personally, I think this is absolutely wonderful. If every potential criminal was forced to consider this as a likely outcome, the country would be a much better place, and I sincerely hope that neither the cops nor the citizenry put any particular effort into "catching" the armed citizen in question.

    Having said that, approaching a downed criminal and putting an "insurance round" into the back of his head is liable to result in criminal charges regardless of how justified the previous rounds may have been, and I would strongly argue against it in nearly any conceivable engagement.
     
  23. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    If they find him that video is going to hang him.

    I could almost justify shooting the guy in the back. Because there were customers at the door that he could have been approaching. And I will give the shooter the benefit of the doubt on that.

    But when he got up and approached the guy who was laying on the floor and shot him in the back and it looks like shot him in the back of the head he went over the line.

    I don't know if I could say in good conscience that he committed murder but he went way beyond the bounds of self defense
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  24. unclenunzie

    unclenunzie Contributing Member

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    This full version certainly changes the situation. In the edited version from TV it looked simpler.
     
  25. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

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    For the first portion of my post I'm going to ignore legalities and focus on another aspect of the scenario.

    Can you tell which customer was armed before he got up and started shooting? I could easily tell when I watched the video the first time, before I knew who was the CCW. Watch the video again and see why. Then, perhaps, think about what you would do in a similar situation so you wouldn't stand out from the rest of the patrons the way this guy did.

    Ok, now legalities. You MUST watch this video to see the whole encounter. If you read my assessment based on the excerpt in Colin Noir's YT video, you will not get the full picture.
    https://twitter.com/NuanceBro/status/1611808197316075521

    Saying that the guy was shot while leaving is sort of tricky. Maybe he's leaving, maybe he's just going to make another lap of the room. Maybe he's checking to see if anyone is outside the store before he herds everyone in back to shoot them. It's hard to know what is really happening there.

    So the CCW starts shooting. I think that it would not be hard to argue that this is justifiable. Not a nice super-clear cut case of self-defense, but I think it's workable if the CCW doesn't say anything stupid. If he says something like: "When he started leaving, I shot him." he's in trouble. If he says something like: "The guy was pointing his gun at everyone and when he turned away from me for a minute, I shot him." he might be ok.

    The Bad Guy goes down and drops his gun. Maybe the CCW saw the gun go flying or maybe he didn't.

    The guy is down but moving. The CCW advances and keeps shooting. Everything is happening pretty fast. Still potentially a workable self-defense case, IMO, but things are moving farther away from the "ideal" self-defense case.

    Now the guy is down and not moving and the CCW advances and shoots him at very close range--looks like the last shot was in the head. Maybe he thinks the guy still has his gun and is playing possum. Again, it's all happening pretty fast and maybe a good lawyer can make this shot fit a self-defense scenario but I would really be scared if I were the CCW watching that video in court.

    The CCW reaches over and picks up the BG's gun. Now the CCW can see that the BG is down and not moving, he knows he shot him in the head and he knows that he has the guy's gun. At this point it's hard to argue that the CCW is still in a self-defense scenario.

    The CCW shoots him again in the head. That looks an awful lot like murder. I don't know exactly how the law works to the detail required for something like this, but maybe it's possible for the forensics to show the guy was already dead before this last shot and perhaps the CCW's defense attorney can argue that point into a charge less than murder.

    Knowing when to stop is very important.
     
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