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At athe range for CCW instructor got on me for having hardball ammo for self defense

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Hot brass, Sep 16, 2003.

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  1. Hot brass

    Hot brass Member

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    I took a large amount of hardball to do the mandatory shooting for the CCW class. When we were all done and ready to leave I loaded my mag with hardball and the instructor asked, " you are not carrying hardball? are you?
    In the class he stated many instances where hardball was ineffective. Guy shoots bg with 5 rds of 45 hb, bg shoots gg with .22lr and gg dies, bg goes to hosp on his own power. Bg takes multiple rds of 45 hb in the back and lives. Etc,etc,etc. Don`t get me wrong, good instructor, he just hates hardball. Says carry hp`s. No hb. I always thought hardball was VERY effective. I know I know, shot placement, shot placement.

    I carry either a SA 1911A1 or a PARA P14 both in 45acp.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  2. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

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    Friendly advice is one thing but if he is harping on you just nod and go on your way.

    There is no point in arguing with someone about 9mm vs .45 and HP vs HB.

    Personally I carry hardball for the added insurance of reliability.

    I'm just not sure about the added effectiveness of slow .45acp hollowpoints
    with possible underpenetration when dealing with cover.

    This guy needs to live and let live. Unless you are doing something extremely unsafe or illegal he needs to ****.
     
  3. KC

    KC Member

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    Didn't hardball work plenty well for GI's for, what, 70-odd years? I am sure there are a few (dead) NVA, N. Koreans, Germans, Japanese, Italians, more Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Mexican Viliastias, Sandinistias, Moros, and so forth that could attest to hardball's effectiveness.
     
  4. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Member

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    Millions of people; literally millions of people have died from being shot with non-expanding ammunition. Many of them were shot only once.
     
  5. duckfoot

    duckfoot member

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    .45 acp 230gr fmj RULES!!!

    A good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot. No matter what kind of ammo you use.

    Yeah, that guy needs to ****!

    Or is Hard Ball ammo restricted in your state?
     
  6. nemesis

    nemesis Member

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    Superb logic! That single statement truly answers the age old question of whether hardball outperforms expanding ammunition.

    You may want to ponder how many millions of people have died by spears and arrows. Are you prepared to use a spear for self defense?

    If you decide to stick with firearms, why not use a black powder wheel-lock for your hardball ammo. Millions of people died from being shot with black powder weapons so they must be effective. You would agree, wouldn't you?

    Or were you just looking for a way to justify your own opinion with flawed logic?
     
  7. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    A .22 short in the left eye socket will always do more damage then a 20mm Vulcan missing the target (although both will assure soiled undies on the part of the target :evil: ).


    What caliber are you carrying?


    I carry a Makarov right now and frankly I'm of the attitude that if you are carrying anything smaller then 9x19 you should carry FMJs or ball because with smaller calibers you need the penetration, and over-penetration is pretty much a non-issue (although there are some 9x18 and .380s that do expand well).
     
  8. DorGunR

    DorGunR Member

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    KC Posted
    Didn't hardball work plenty well for GI's for, what, 70-odd years? I am sure there are a few (dead) NVA, N. Koreans, Germans, Japanese, Italians, more Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Mexican Viliastias, Sandinistias, Moros, and so forth that could attest to hardball's effectiveness.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hardball always worked for me.
    SFC US Army (Ret) 1950 - 1972 ;)
     
  9. Sarge111

    Sarge111 member

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    Hardball problems?

    1. Gun must work every time. Hardball makes it happen.

    2. Gun must be accurate enough to hit vital area. Hardball qualifies.

    3. That good hit must be able to penetrate vitals and intervening limbs, etc., with enough residual energy to disrupt spinal column with centerline hits. Ugly business- but hardball makes it happen.

    Is hardball perfect for every conceivable application? No. Neither are JHPs.

    Ignore bozo and carry what makes your gun work best. I like Ranger SXT in my Sig- but would certainly not feel naked if it were loaded with the same cartridge that got us through two world wars and a handfull of 'police actions.'
     
  10. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    In my CCW class they showed a video (reinactment) of a Bubba wrestling with two LEO taking not one but two (125gr. JHP I believe) .357 at muzzle to chest and skull range... and Bubba kept coming back for more (I believe one officer died as a result of the battle).

    Use what ya got, try some of each, hardball works fine most of the time (its just a pistol for pete's sake).

    But, if you're going up against French goats, try HP... I hear goats don't like them much and last 3.5 seconds longer or something :rolleyes:

    Sides that, 500 rds of Hydra Shok (or whatever) is kinda pricey for a classroom environment.

    Definitely try out a couple hundred rounds of some HP for carry tho'.

    Adios
     
  11. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    I prefer the potential from HP and SP etc ..... but .........

    If it were a case of being 99.99999% sure that my mag full of FMJ's will cycle thru as against the outside chance that a ''special'' bullet config just might jam me .... then I'll take the FMJ's.

    I do use HydraShocks for carry mostly but .... am not feeling severely disadvantaged if loaded with FMJ's .... far from it.

    7 or 8 GFMJ's just have to be more effective than just one ''special'' .........
     
  12. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

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    More people, in the USA, die every year in bathtubs than by gunshots.



    Now I realize that I am a kinda big guy....


    and even if Bianchi did make a holster for one....




    But seriously folks, 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtrays" work just fine in my Commander. (But I also have about 5,000 rounds of hardball packed away "just in case".)
     
  13. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Wow! He actually quoted the little anecdotal "case histories" from pp. 93-94 of Handgun Stopping Power off the top of his head? I'll bet this guy changes ammunition in his carry gun every time a new load creeps past his by one tenth of a percent on the OSS-meter. :uhoh:
     
  14. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    /me buys Tamara a beer

    :D

    shot placement my brothas ... shot placement ... hit the range my brothas, hit tha range :D
     
  15. sm

    sm member

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    Agree with above
    bring Tamara a 2nd rd on me...
     
  16. Hand_Rifle_Guy

    Hand_Rifle_Guy Member

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    Tamara, your Good Will Hunting is showing! :p

    I've read that book 3 times cover-to-cover, (I own it, but didn't buy it.) and I don't know it as well as you do. I just don't assign it enough credibility, I guess. ;) :neener: ;)

    Hardball is not a panacea, but it generally is the most reliable for function.

    Rule #1 of HAVE A GUN is HAVE A GUN THAT WORKS!


    Hollowpoints are pretty good at causing misfunction. If hardball is what works, then hardball shall thou run. It's still plenty lethal.

    Remember, obsolete is not the same as ineffective!
     
  17. KC

    KC Member

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    Hot Brass, here's a suggestion.

    Your instructor has told you, apparently, that one .22 in the eye is more effective than 4-5 rounds of ball ammo. Offer to take him up on it, so long as you get to shoot first.
     
  18. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    I use fmj in my Ruger P90 .45. Never felt unprotected. I use them in my 1911 also.

    In my Makarov I have only used hollow points. That's all they had at the shop when I bought it. Don't feel unprotected.

    In my EAA Windicator with the 2 inch barrell I shoot jacketed soft tips in both .38 and .357.

    I am thinking of going the hollow point route in the Ruger. But I haven't had the time to investigate enough. I am leaning towards the Taurus all copper hex bullets. Anybody have any experience with them? I haven't seen them yet but they sound promising.

    DM
     
  19. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    By the way, I have always considered "anecdotal" evidence to be nothing but hearsay.

    DM
     
  20. greyhound

    greyhound Member

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    Yup! That's why I've been thinking about trying the Corbon Pow-R-Ball for my .45, it has the little plastic ball in the center of the HP.

    Hard to find on the internet, at least a place that doesn't require a UPS signature.
     
  21. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Hot Brass:

    You don't have to justify to anyone what kind of ammunition you carry, or explain you're reasons - unless that particular kind is illegal. Some places prohibit residents other then law enforcement officers from carrying hollow-points, but I don't think this applies to you. You are quite correct in saying that hollow-point's sometimes cause feeding problems, and if a pistol doesn't go BANG! when it should the kind of bullet is a moot point. This in itself is enough reason to carry ball. Too many people are looking for a magic bullet while they should be working on markmenship.
     
  22. OF

    OF Member

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    Hardball is certainly better than nothing, but it is the worst performing .45ACP ammunition available. Modern JHP cartridges are just plain better. If your gun will only work with hardball, I'd suggest a new gun. I'd buy up several 50-round boxes of Winchester RA45T or RA45TP and put a couple hundred rounds through that heater and see how it works. Do you carry that 1911 because of nostalgia or becuase it's a superior design? Why carry ammo for nostalgia.

    - Gabe
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  23. marvl

    marvl Member

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    Clint Smith's advice is good enough for me: .45acp FMJ. .45 to make as big a hole as possible, and FMJ to insure reliability. It's what I keep in my gun on the night stand.
     
  24. answerguy

    answerguy Member

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    A guy that works with a friend of my cousin who lives in CA says that's not true!
     
  25. DorGunR

    DorGunR Member

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    Posted by GRD Do you carry that 1911 because of nostalgia or becuase it's a superior design? Why carry ammo for nostalgia.

    - Gabe
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    I carry the 1911 because it's a superior design.
    I carry FMJ because it works.;)
     
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