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At the range with a new AR that is not feeding- help

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by mookiie, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Good idea, before you start dremeling on Mag's you already know work.
     
  2. VA27

    VA27 Member

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    Others have hit most of it.

    I use ATF for lube. http://www.grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html

    If you're OCD or it makes you feel better, set the rings, but it doesn't really matter. Like the piston rings in an engine they rotate on their own (how would they get out of alignment otherwise?) and will re-align themselves eventually. The real thing that matters is wear. When they won't support the weight of the carrier, replace 'em.
     
  3. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Do not concern yourself with the alignment of the rings. Seriously. Do NOT worry about it.
     
  4. Rubber_Duck

    Rubber_Duck Member

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    I'll add once again, that gas ring alignment does not matter, and the test for tightness is simple, just look at my previous post in this thread. I know someone else posted some info out of the Army FM for the M16/M4 that states gas rings must have their gaps staggered but it's non-sense. Just because they put it in the FM and decided to never remove the information doesn't make it true. There's a lot they teach in the military that they really shouldn't teach (like scraping the carbon off the bolt tail with wire brushes, serves absolutely no purpose and it drove me nuts).

    As for lube, I use synthetic ATF. Works great, I've been using it for years in my personal ARs and on my issued rifle when I was in the military (except when I didn't have access to ATF) and never had problems, bolt would stay wet after a few hundred rounds.
     
  5. thump_rrr

    thump_rrr Member

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    Thank you for the manual.

    Being that I am not former military there were many things that I was not aware of.
    I'm surprised that the front of the trigger guard was designed in the manner it was so that it can be swung down to be used with winter gloves.

    You are never too old to learn something new
     
  6. hueyville

    hueyville Member

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    I don't know that I have been any military surplus store in my life that did not stock the military manual for said platform and others. As to the OP's issues, if this is only with his home built unit, I would recommend taking it to a competent smith. I have owned over 50 AR's and currently have over a dozen. Had one that came in a trade 25 years ago that first trip to range did not function properly. Took home, put in safe until had time to look at it. Time never came with a never ending myriad of projects from tractor, motorcycle, hot-rod restorations, bench rest rifles, IPSC, IDPA pistols and more but it was eating no hay and filtered way back in the vault that I seldom open. With this latest freakout decided was time to sell the gun but did not want it to be incorrect to purchaser. Dropped it off at local armorer who immediately noticed a 10 year prison sentence due to issue with the upper. Was not an issue as far as I knew, the flashhider was visibly staked, but I didn't know it had to be lock-tighted or welded also for two forms of attachment. Then when he opened it up the thing had a complete full auto lower in it which had not been properly assembled. We sadly but quickly turned the sear mechanism into goo with a torch wishing I had made an attempt to register it back in the day when that was a mail order parts kit. I do have one registered and uninstalled auto-sear in my trust that was purchased mail-order for 100 bucks and when my armorer offered me 7,500 for it I let it go. Just waiting for the paperwork to clear. More rock n roll does not mean much to me but cash does.

    I ended up taking all of my current AR's to be checked over. Found out another had a lower that was worth serious cash and turned loose of it. All in all, I had two federal prison sentences dealt with, all AR's professionally serviced and over 10,000 bucks in pocket when done. Only down one gun in the count. I suggest any of you with home built parts guns done by Vietnam Vets to have them checked out. My issue was one gun built with parts mailed home from Nam then reassembled on an aftermarket lower, I called guy who built it as still had his number and he gave me the complete history. I took the gun in trade 25 years ago and plan was to take to next gunshow to sell. Could have gone out in cuffs instead of with cash. I am a machinist by trade and build guns on occasion. I do a lot of 10/22's and good at those. I have built a couple of turnbolts and a couple of AR parts guns. That said, I have had all my competition guns built by renown professional smiths. And from now on whenever a parts built AR comes through my hands it is going to an armorer before it comes home. One man can't know everything and better safe than sorry. Plus, one man can't have every armorers tool for every gun and the right tool is important on some things.
     
  7. justice06rr

    justice06rr Member

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    So to clarify to the OP, you are using an ATI poly lower with the Rguns upper, and this combination creates the problems?

    Your most likely issue is related to the upper and BCG by Rguns. The lower can also be a culprit. I have experience with both.

    To diagnose the issue, I suggest a few things:

    1. Get good factory ammo i.e. Federal 5.56/223 or anything you can get your hands on.
    2. Use a reliable magazine that you know is working properly (Pmag, GI mag)
    3. Lube the AR properly
    4. Check that your AR is properly assembled (gas key, gas rings, bolt catch, etc) and the BCG is in good working condition.

    Then go from there.
     
  8. Sun Tzu warrior

    Sun Tzu warrior Member

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    WOW! Glad I have mini-14's if they don't work correctly..... buy a factory magazine!
    This thread gave me a headache just looking at all the possible problems! Easy to see why the US military likes M4/16 type platforms...... Plenty of red tape! LOL!
    Hueyville, Glad you had no handcuff issues all those years you were suseptable to one! Let the buyer
    beware! Another plus for Mini 14's..... easily distinguishable from an ACC556!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  9. Warp

    Warp Member

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    The US military likes rguns guns?

    What the heck are you talking about?
     
  10. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    Thanks for all the input guys. I have not gotten around to it yet but I will clean and break it down to check the points mentioned this weekend. I also got some ATF to lube it, it was probably too dry since I only sprayed a little rem oil on it before we left for the range. I will let you know how it works out for me too! Thanks again everyone.
     
  11. Sun Tzu warrior

    Sun Tzu warrior Member

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    Warp, "The US military likes rguns guns?" Really?! That is not a quote from what I wrote.
    What the heck are you talking about?
     
  12. Warp

    Warp Member

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    That is one of the risks when using unclear pronouns. ;)

    You said "them". I cannot be certain what you were referring to, but an rguns gun is what is having a problem here, so to me the most logical answer is that you were referring to rguns.
     
  13. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    The real problem exists in assembling parts from numerous vendors and hoping everything works as it should. What our military chooses are thoroughbreds, having been tested and proven as a system. Not every build is without trial and error.
     
  14. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    If staggering the gas rings fixes your gas problem (and it hasn't ever in the hundreds of thousands of rounds I've shot through ARs and witnessed shot), then you have a borderline rifle with a problem somewhere else in the gas system that IS going to malfunction again.

    As others have already noted, a properly built AR is capable of running on a single gas ring. This is a worse situation than having the gaps in 3 gas rings aligned. If you do have a rifle that has a problem somewhere else, staggering the gas rings could theoretically give you the tiny extra bit of pressure you need to make the rifle function; but I've never seen it happen in real life. If having the gaps aligned was critical to function in any way, the military wouldn't be using 3 gas rings that are inevitably going to align all the gaps as the bolt moves back and forth.

    As for the FM, I'd say the military was responsible for at least half of the misinformation and outright lies I was taught about firearms.
     
  15. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    As was said, try Nato and or factory ammo, not your admittedly underpowered handloads.
     
  16. Sun Tzu warrior

    Sun Tzu warrior Member

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    Warp, I guess southern drawl is different in Mississippi than Georgia, for your approval I have edited my post. Please define rguns? Not trying to be confrontational. Do you mean AR type weapons, if so then you are correct.
     
  17. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Define rguns guns?

    A gun manufactured by rguns, perhaps?

    http://www.rguns.net
     
  18. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    Definitely try using full power 5.56 ammo. Weak handloads and cheap imports can cause short stroking. Another cause can be a too powerful buffer spring.
     
  19. Sun Tzu warrior

    Sun Tzu warrior Member

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    Warp, in the imortal words of Ricky Ricardo.... That Splains it! No, I don't think the US military buys weapons from "RGUNS" LOL! If you were trying to make the point that piecemealing a weapon together from pieces/parts can cause problems, I whole heartedly agree!
     
  20. mookiie

    mookiie Member

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    readyeddy - how can you tell what buffer spring you need?
     
  21. Warp

    Warp Member

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    The carbine action spring aka buffer spring is a pretty standard thing.

    Seriously, the reloads are probably the problem. If not that, something rguns manufactured would be my next bet.

    If it's not having the proper part within the system, it would more likely be the wrong buffer weight for your system, not the spring. What weight buffer is it?

    But seriously...try factory ammo before worrying about anything else.
     
  22. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    At this point, you have a gas system issue that may or may not be tied to your handloads, your first step should be to try new factory ammo to see if it works with that. Different powders have different pressures at the gas port and it isn't unusual for a gas port drilled for 5.56mm M855 (0.62" on a 14.5"-16" barrel with carbine length gas tube) to not produce enough pressure to operate from mildly loaded .223 (which is why many manufacturers use a slightly larger port size that can cause issues with 5.56 in hot barrels).

    I would recommend getting two known good magazines and some factory ammo in both .223 and 5.56. Load each magazine with three rounds of 5.56 factory ammo. Shoot both until you have a malfunction or the bolt locks back on the empty mag. If you have a malfunction, repeat the process with a single round - is the bolt locking back on the empty magazine follower? If so, you are getting enough gas and the problem is somewhere else in the upper. If it passes with 5.56, repeat with factory .223. If it passes with both, try your handloads again.

    Take pictures if you can. You may have to decide whether you want to tune it towards your handloads or factory ammo.
     
  23. itsa pain

    itsa pain member

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    this idea of lubing an AR otherwise it would not function is weird to me. if mine would not work without marinating it in a 55 gal drum of oil I would break it apart and throw it in the garbage.. I never had one malfunction because it was dry. the gas port could be clogged if the guy was shooting a .22 conversion kit where the wax and lead might close up the port
     
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