At War on the Border (AZ) (Long, and a Maalox Alert)

[Southla1]

"It's the illegals that are going to sue us. The lawsuit will involve Johnny Cochran or his equiv. repping Juan Doe "

If there is no Juan Doe or Johnny Roach er Cochran or his equiv. there can be no suit. As I said Caliber .30 litigation. Sometimes even those in the right must do slightly illegal things to preserve their God given rights.

 

[ahenry]

AZTOY,

I’m pretty up on the conditions of things on the border, but thanks for clarifying. I will always stand behind anybody that uses whatever force is necessary to protect life, limb and property. My question to Bottom Gun was to know the specific area where he thought it was “too hot†for the BP. However, since you said that you live in Arivaca, I thought I’d mention that that is in the Tucson sector for the Border Patrol, and is currently being staffed with new agents (so is Yuma and San Diego), and it will probably continue being staffed through January and then sporadically after that while Texas is staffed again. The Tucson sector covers most of AZ (something like 500 miles) and has stations in Ajo, Casa Grande, Douglas, Naco, Nogales, Sonoita, Tucson, and Wilcox. There are something like 1000 agents stationed there (any give shift probably has about a third that are “out and aboutâ€) so thats not many people to cover a large area. I don’t know exactly how many new agents are going to Tucson right now (actually most are probably in the academy now) but it should be a fairly substantial number arriving during the 2003. I just thought I’d toss that out to back up what you were saying about the BP being overwhelmed, and to mention that attempts are being made to fix it. In addition, for those that care, the number of apprehensions has increased immensely from a couple years ago (most places have well over 1000% increase). Most people agree (on all sides of the coin) that a large portion of this increase in the past few years is from a greater and greater number of Mexicans crossing the border (rather than more apprehensions solely from more agents, or better methods or whatnot). Considering the slowness with which the gov’t typically moves, I’d say its fairly impressive that they have as many new agents there (and ones that are coming) as they do. I know this is not going to be a popular, but give it some time. Continue to protect yourself and your property (just as anybody anywhere should), but don’t worry too much. Its being worked on...

 

[coati]

Had some friends in Cochise, AZ (near the Willcox playa) that also reported being kind to illegals years ago with mutual respect. They have since passed on, and it seems that the "soft border" of years ago must also pass.

 

[AZTOY]

ahenry

You are right the border patrol is trying but there is too many illegals coming cross the border.
But i would like to know how a barb wire fence is going to keep the illegals out. Most of the so called border is a barb wire fence.
If the gov’t would build a 10 feet wall this would help. But thay will not do that , we need more 10 million doller airplanes.

Also i am glad that the Tucson Boarder Patrol is geting more men!

 

[Waitone]

--INS knows what's going on
--BP knows what's going on
--Local government knows what's going on
--Federales at all levels knows what going on
--National politicians know what's going on
--Local landowners know what's going on
--National Park Service knows what's going on
--Local hospitals know what's going on
--Local LE know what's going on
--Local media knows what's going on
--National media knows what's going on

So with all the knowledge of the situation at hand, how come it is no one seems able to take action to remediate the situation? Its got something to do with power, sex or money. Yet, the ruling class refuses to take action.

Human nature dictates vigelantism will take place. Unfortunately, someone will die, someone will get hurt. The problem is it will be the Honkey-American on the border who will pay the price. This mess has to get visible and public toute suite because the ruling class will crucify anyone remotely associated with attempts to stem the flood.

I have long predicte the third American Civil War (the first American Civil War was what is erroneously call the Revolutionary War) will start in the West over land usage and water rights. Looks like I'm wrong. It'll start over illegal immigration and malfeasance by public officials. Better set up legal defense committees now because the federales in particular will move fast to prosecute in a show trial.

Nothing good will come of this mess.

 

[ahenry]

I beg to differ waitone,

Many things are indeed being done. To your way of thinking the proper things are not being done. However, to my way of thinking some of the proper things are being done (with the omission of perhaps the most important part). Just because you don’t like the solution doesn’t mean the "problem" is being ignored.

 

[wingman]

Tired & poor
The bankrupt arguments for mass, unskilled immigration
By Steven A. Camarota
National Review, September 3, 2001

Talks in August involving Secretary of State Powell, Attorney General
Ashcroft, and their Mexican counterparts may have produced the broad
outline of an immigration agreement. It would involve a two-step amnesty,
first rechristening the approximately 4 million Mexicans illegally in the
U.S. as "temporary" workers, then giving them permanent residence after a
period of indenture of perhaps three to five years. Even more workers would
then be imported from Mexico as "temporary" workers, and would eventually
receive green cards.

Most critics of this amnesty have focused on the fact that it rewards
lawbreakers and mocks the law-abiding; others have argued that there is no
moral reason for singling out Mexicans at the expense of other
nationalities. While these are reasonable objections, few commentators have
asked the larger question: Is mass unskilled immigration from Mexico really
good for the U.S.? In a new study, the Center for Immigration Studies uses
the latest Census Bureau data to examine the prevalent assumptions
surrounding this issue-and they turn out to be myths.

The ur-justification for unskilled immigration is, "Who else will clean my
pool?" And it contains a kernel of truth, with regard to Mexican
immigration. About two-thirds of all Mexican immigrants are high-school
dropouts, and only 4 percent have a college degree. During the 1990s,
Mexican immigration increased the number of dropouts in the U.S. workforce
by 11 percent, while increasing the supply of all other workers by only
half a percentage point. Thus, the effect of Mexican immigration on wages
is confined to unskilled workers. Since the vast majority of natives have
completed high school and are employed in higher-skilled occupations, most
natives don't face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants.

But there's still a problem: More than 10 million adult native-born
American workers lack a high-school education, and they are in direct
competition with unskilled immigrants. The vast majority of Mexican
immigrants work in such jobs: busboy, pool cleaner, and so on. These jobs
are still overwhelmingly done by natives. The myth that immigrants only
take jobs no one else wants persists primarily because middle-class
Americans view most of these jobs as something they certainly would not
want to do.

The increase in the supply of unskilled labor brought about by Mexican
immigration reduced wages for high-school dropouts by about 5 percent in
the 1990s-not so much because immigrants work for less and undercut natives
(though that does happen), but rather because lower wages are an
unavoidable byproduct of significantly increasing the supply of unskilled
labor. It's basic economics: Increase the supply of something, and the
price will fall.

The chief problem with lower wages for unskilled workers is that they are
already the lowest paid; one need not be a liberal to acknowledge that
beggaring the poor may contribute to social disharmony. It's true that
these wage losses do not vanish into thin air: Lower wages for the poor
should result in lower prices for consumers. But the savings are
infinitesimal, precisely because unskilled workers earn such low wages to
begin with. High-school dropouts account for less than 4 percent of total
economic output. Thus, if Mexican immigration reduces wages for dropouts by
5 percent, prices for consumers are lowered by less than two-tenths of 1
percent. It is simply not possible for a high-tech economy like ours to
derive large benefits from unskilled immigration.

Another myth has to do with welfare. While it is certainly true that the
vast majority of Mexican immigrants come to work and not to use government
services, there's also no question that very many end up using government
services anyway. Even after welfare reform, 31 percent of all Mexican
households in the U.S. use at least one major welfare program-double the 15
percent rate for natives. Clearly, one of the unintended consequences of an
amnesty would almost certainly be to increase welfare costs still further.

Heavy use of welfare by Mexican immigrants stems not from moral defects or
a lack of jobs, but rather from the very low incomes of Mexican immigrants.
The modern American economy offers very limited opportunities for those
with little education, and so poor workers or their children are often
eligible for welfare programs, such as food stamps, public housing, or
Medicaid.

Mexican immigrants also pay very little in taxes. By design, those with
lower incomes pay much less in taxes than middle- and upper-class workers.
This means that even if Mexican immigrants used welfare at the same rate as
natives, they would still be a substantial drain on public coffers because
their tax payments are dramatically lower.

While there is debate among researchers on the fiscal effects of immigrants
overall, there is absolute consensus that immigrants with little education
are a huge drain on the public budget. We at the Center for Immigration
Studies estimate that the average Mexican immigrant will use $55,200 more
in public services during his lifetime than he pays in taxes. In effect,
Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled
workers, holding down labor costs while taxpayers pick up the tab for
providing services to a much larger poor population. It's like any other
subsidy: Businesses that receive it want it to continue, but for the nation
as a whole, it's a bad deal.

Although the economic arguments against unskilled immigration are
overwhelming, many advocates of an amnesty still defend it because they
feel there is no alternative. But in fact, the problem isn't nearly as
intractable as it may seem. The INS estimates that each year, 150,000
illegal aliens leave the country on their own, another 200,000 get green
cards as part of the normal "legal" immigration process, 50,000 illegals
are deported, and about 20,000 die. In sum, the illegal-alien population
decreases by at least 400,000 people each year.

Of course, something like 600,000 new illegals arrive annually, and thus
the total illegal population continues to grow. But the numbers leaving the
illegal population are still huge; if we significantly reduce the number of
new illegal aliens entering the country and increase (even if only
modestly) the number who go home, the problem will largely take care of
itself over time.

How do we do this? In the past, our efforts to control illegal immigration
have focused almost exclusively on the border. While much remains to be
done in this area, the real key to reducing illegal immigration is to cut
illegals off from jobs. Unfortunately, the 1986 ban on hiring illegals has
never been enforced. Although highly regarded pilot programs already exist,
Congress has never provided funding to develop a national verification
system that would enable employers to check quickly whether new hires have
the right to work. Moreover, Congress has refused to increase funding for
workplace enforcement, so we are left with an almost comical situation in
which 300 INS inspectors attempt to enforce the ban on hiring the millions
of illegals now in the country.

An integrated program of workplace enforcement and border control would
cause a steady decline in the illegal population. Even the potential
economic dislocation caused by such a policy would be minimal, since there
is no possibility that all illegals will magically disappear overnight.
This approach would increase wages for the poor, spur productivity gains,
and protect American sovereignty. An amnesty, even if it's dressed up as a
guest-worker program, can achieve none of these ends.

 

[Gordon]

Ahenry: please respond to the current plans the border patrol has concerning incursions/covering fire by Mexican official or quasi official vehicles and persons. Or maybe we should just take off our tin foil hats because it never happens? I'll bet $ the response is to A): call senior on radio who B): calls back to DC who C): calls back to say run like rabbits and say it never happened like ostriches. Do I have to post the structure of Govt. provision that says "shall protect the borders" would it help?

 

[AZTOY]

Grijalva: Have FBI probe alleged militia-racist link
Rep.-elect denounces patrols; they call his bigotry charges 'lies'
Tucson Citizen
Dec. 19, 2002

Vigilante group hurting towns' images, business, residents say
Congressman-elect Raúl Grijalva says his first official act will be to ask the FBI to investigate alleged links between civilian militias in southern Arizona and white supremacist groups.
"If you shine the light on the cockroaches, they don't like it," Grijalva said at a press conference yesterday hosted by Coalicion de Derechos Humanos, a group that advocates for illegal immigrants.
"The more we ignore it, the more it's going to fester," said Grijalva, who will be the first representative from the new Congressional District 7, which stretches from Tucson to Yuma.
Grijalva also said he wants a "declarative condemnation" of the militias by the U.S. Border Patrol.
Border Patrol spokesman Ryan Scudder said the militias have the same right to operate and to speak their mind as Derechos Humanos. However, Border Patrol doesn't issue opinions on specific groups.
Grijalva spoke out against the Sierra Vista-based American Border Patrol, Texas-based Ranch Rescue and the Civil Homeland Defense, organized by Tombstone newspaper publisher Chris Simcox.
Grijalva said he believes all three organizations are racist.
A report released yesterday by the Tucson-based Border Action Network alleges that groups such as the American Border Patrol are local fronts for neo-Nazi groups such as the St. Louis-based Council of Conservative Citizens.
The report says such groups provided funding to local vigilante groups but no specific amounts are given.
Glenn Spencer of the American Border Patrol said claims that his group is connected to racist organizations are "absolute lies."

Simcox challenged Grijalva to "prove it," and said the congressman-elect should instead investigate "why the borders are wide open."
Simcox said Grijalva is trying to deflect attention from the real issue, which is how illegal immigrants are sticking taxpayers with the bill for emergency health care and other social services.
Ranch Rescue spokesman Jack Foote couldn't be reached for comment.
Ranch Rescue has sent armed patrols onto private property in southern Arizona, and Simcox said his group plans to start patrolling private and public property along the border next month.
The American Border Patrol uses electronic equipment to monitor illegal immigrant traffic along the border. Isabel Garcia of Derechos Humanos said that group may be working with the U.S. Border Patrol because two former U.S. patrol agents now work for the American Border Patrol.
Scudder denied there was a link.
"We don't have anything to do with them," Scudder said. "They're retired agents. They have no access, they have no official connections with the U.S. Border Patrol."
Grijalva said his second priority in Washington will be asking for congressional hearings on border problems that would be held near the border.
Grijalva, a Democrat, toured southern Arizona's border with Mexico earlier this month with three other members of Arizona's congressional delegation: U.S. Sens. John McCain and Jon Kyl and U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, all Republicans.
The group afterward agreed border issues must receive higher priority in Washington.
Grijalva said yesterday that a statement from President Bush denouncing the militias also would "do a great deal."
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/12_19_02grijalva.html

 

[Gordon]

Any ideas how we can shine the light on this cock roach of a politician? Any body know anything we can get on his connection? This is the place for pysops guys.

 

[rock jock]

ahenry,

I would still be interested in hearing from you on how you claim to be so knowledgeable on this subject (per the recent TFL thread). My PM box is empty.

- rock

 

[Jim Diver]

If the feds won't do the job they are sworn to do then it's time for the people to do the job.

After all, this country does not belong to the feds, it belongs to us!

 

[Southla1]

Gordon, look at the name of this so called representative ..........
Raúl Grijalva.

It's probably his cousins that are running illegals across the border.

 

[rock jock]

Southla,

That's not fair. There are plenty of Hispanics that are for strict enforcement of immigration laws. The trouble is, we only hear from the liberal side.

 

[444]

I realize that this is no surprise to anyone, but a couple years ago, I was javelina hunting just North of the Mexican border in Arizona. As I walked through the desert I would see groups of maybe 5-10 illegals running through the desert. Over the course of one day I am sure I saw several hundred. Every wash contained empty cans and human refuse from illegals camping there. The whole imagration problem really hit home for me. If I saw hundreds in one day, then there must have been thousands or even possibly tens of thousands of illegals crossing all along the Mexican border in just that one day. That night we heard low flying airplanes passing overhead. The next day we were talking to a border patrolman and asked him what they were doing with the airplanes, his answer was that they didn't have airplanes in that area last night.
As much as we all talk about this problem, I don't think it is posible for someone who has not been in that area to believe the scope of the problem. I am still amazed.
That next day I encountered a group of illegals drinking from a cattle trough. They had gallon plastic jugs they were filling up that were filled with algae. One of them spoke English and said, You know what were are doing here ? And I said, I think I have a pretty good idea. He told me that they were lost and out of water and food. I took him back to my truck and re-supplied him. I am all for stopping the flood of illegals, but I am not going to let someone die of exposure in the desert. The area where I was was very remote. It was like 30 miles to the nearest gas station. This brings up another point. I can't fault guys like this from leaving Mexico and trying to come to the US. Mexico has everything going for it in terms of natural resources, beautiful resort property etc and a government that is squandering it's resources at every opportunity. These people have no future and are lucky to survive from day to day. Of course they want to come here and lead a decent life. But by the same token I am tired of the US being looked upon to solve all the problems of every other country in the world. As harsh as it is, these people have to stay in their own country and make due as best as they can. We have enough problems of our own.

 

[Gordon]

Hey my wife is a Mexican! Her father volunteered from TJ and fought in WW2 for his citizenship. He was in Patton's tank corp thru europe. He worked for General Dynamics for 33 years and retired very wealthy and a staunch Republican, not bad for orphaned shoe shine boy. He says any immigrant should do it right and by the holy kahki so do I. Any one else is an invader and should be treated as such. End of story, anyone who disagrees should be deported to his choice of workers paradise. That son of bitch Arizona politician should be target of our investigation anyone who thinks like that must be a crook!

 

[ahenry]

Ahenry: please respond to the current plans the border patrol has concerning incursions/covering fire by Mexican official or quasi official vehicles and persons. Or maybe we should just take off our tin foil hats because it never happens? I'll bet $ the response is to A): call senior on radio who B): calls back to DC who C): calls back to say run like rabbits and say it never happened like ostriches. Do I have to post the structure of Govt. provision that says "shall protect the borders" would it help?

How about the words of an Agent that dealt with this very question? “ With regard to these incursions, a few months ago we caught five Mexican soldiers that had entered into the US. I work at the Campo Border Patrol Station here at the San Diego sector, which is approximatelly one hour away from the city of San Diego. This particular incident took place in what was then our zone 28. The agent who confronted these four soldiers saw footprints leading north from the border. He tracked them for a few minutes before he spotted four Mexican soldiers in Desert camouflage uniform armed with G3 automatic rifles and sidearms. The agent told them to drop their weapons, they refused and the agent drew his weapon and pointed it at them.They did the same to him with their weapons. They started arguing back and forth and the Mexican soldiers started to back away toward the border, still refusing to yield. The only thing that caused them to see things our way was the arrival of back-up units...we took them to our station...â€

Rock_jock,

Sorry about that. In the hustle and bustle of Christmas I forgot to send you a PM. I just sent you one though (here on THR, not TFL). My bad.

 

[Gordon]

Ahenry, your last post was the most exciting post I have ever read on any forum and should be investigated at presidential level and sung to the rafters far and loud- WE ARE AT WAR WITH MEXICO!Unless prven otherwise it sounds like a probe. G-3's? sounds like we must have Apaches and c130-GUNSHIPS WITH FLIR IN ORBIT along border.

 

[ahenry]

Oh, I wouldn’t call it war. The Mexican military is not doing anything at the behest of their gov’t. They're just running drugs most the time. It wouldn’t hurt things to have a politician tell Fox where he can shove it, but war this sure ain’t.


Besides, it was even odds at 5 Mexican Special Forces soldiers to 1 American.

 

[Bottom Gun]

Ahenry,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was taking care of some of my chores.

To answer your question, I live in a rural area of Santa Cruz County roughly 12 miles from Parker Canyon Lake. The nearest towns are Sonoita and Sierra Vista.
This used to be one of the last unspoiled areas in Arizona. It's mostly National Forest and very rich in game and wildlife. It's changing now though partly from population growth but mostly as a result of the high volume of illegal traffic through here. It was quite different when I discovered it 25 years ago.

FWIW,
Aside from being Mexican, Raúl Grijalva's claim to fame was serving as a member of the Tucson city council. He wasn't worth a damn then either.

The people around here aren't racist. heck, quite a few are of Mexican descent themselves.
My ex wife is Mexican as are some of my close friends. We have no problems with the Mexican people.
What we don't like here are thieves, arsonists and criminals and that seems to be what the majority coming across the line are these days.
Some people lost their homes here when the Mojados started the forest fires this summer. I was lucky and even though I was forced to evacuate as a result of the Ryan fire, I didn't lose anything.

Far as I'm concerned, the Border Patrol talks a lot about solving the problem, but that's as far as it goes. We called them repeatedly to report groups of illegals and even gave them locations of where the illegals set up camp for the night. The results? Same as always. . . . .nothing at all.
They weren't even interested when we called them after finding a stolen car full of drugs in the forest.

It really is looking like we local residents can't depend upon the government for any help at all.

 

[Gordon]

But ya can go to my Bar B Que and shoot down in Douglas on May first 2003. Contact [email protected] before 1 feb03 for directions. Long range shoot, fun house shoot in abandoned adobes, night vision shoot . On a major point of ingress of invaders.(bet none will show for the 3 days of shoot).

 

[Jim Diver]

Clearly this is going to blow up soon. What do you do when your own government refuses to defend you as required by constitutional law?

 

[wingman]

"Oh, I wouldn’t call it war. The Mexican military is not doing anything at the behest of their gov’t."



Your kidding, right.?
Not a war just a police action.!!!



Border Patrol agent shot near Fort Hancock

Jim Conley
El Paso Times
A Border Patrol agent from Fort Hancock was shot in the leg about 4:20 p.m. Saturday by someone on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande while agents were pursuing smugglers 27 miles southeast of the Ysleta Port of Entry, Border Patrol officials said.

The female agent, whose name was not released, was expected to be released Saturday night from Thomason Hospital, El Paso Border Patrol spokesman Doug Mosier said.

The shooting took place after smugglers in a pickup "carrying at least 500 pounds of marijuana" were spotted, he said.

A pursuit began "and the smugglers drove their vehicle into the water and fled into Mexico on foot."

Even though the smugglers reached the safety of Mexico, Mosier said, "apparently a number of assailants were waiting on the Mexico side, and a sustained barrage of gunfire occurred."

The agent was struck by a bullet that penetrated the vehicle, he said. Agents returned fire.

This was thought to be the first shooting of an El Paso sector Border Patrol agent in about 13 years.

On Sept. 12, two El Paso FBI agents were severely beaten by train bandits during a sting operation in the Sunland Park-Anapra area.

 

[Jim Diver]

Oh, I wouldn’t call it war.

Then what is it when official forces from country A deliberatly cross a border into country B and engage country B's forces and civilians with deadly force?

Answer: Act of war.

What is it when country A sends massive numbers of people (deliberatly and illegaly) into part of country B in an attempt to bring that part of country B back into country A's control?

Answer: Invasion.

 

[WilderBill]

The problem isn't just along the border. Here in the DFW area, many miles from the border, there are a lot of places where there is just no point in even speaking English.
The county hospital has been just about broke for years now and that's only on measure of the impact of this invasion.
Maybe we should all go to Gordons shoot and see if any voluteer targets creep up in the desert at night.