ATF cracking down on conversion cylinders

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Striker, your forgetting that just "doing the paperwork" isn't valid either as once it becomes a "firearm" the BATF excise tax must also be paid..... are you going to also pay or collect the excise tax? but then unless ya hold an 07 manufactures license ya now have noway to pay that tax to the BATF as they will only accept payments from an 07 licensed manufacturer...... the only one who can LEGALLY install a conversion cyl. into a non-firearm in essence "manufactuering" a new firearm (even if the C&B is an old used gun it becomes a NEW firearm when that cyl. gets installed) legally as far as the BATF is concerned is #1 a legally licensed 07 Manufacturer who will pay ecxise tax or #2 a private unlicensed person strictly for their own personal use etc... Anyone else does so and they have commited a felony in that they are then acting as an unlicensed manufacturer. The BATF Takes their taxes very seriously....... I'm still trying to figure out how they went from being tax collectors to being law enforcement AND a law enforcent agency capable of bypassing the voters to add their own laws whenever they wish.......

Technically not even a gunsmith can legally install the conversion unless they are also (a seperate license is required) an 07 manufacturer and pays the excise tax accordingly

I've held these licenses as well as a class2 for the last 10 years......
 
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Uh, a bulky, low-velocity, slow-firing black powder or low-power "cowboy" load cartridge revolver that can't safely fire common cartridges...
Ok, I'll bite. Why DO people pay the premium to buy a Cap&Ball revolver PLUS a conversion cylinder?

They could buy JUST the Cap&Ball if shooting BP is their goal and have much cheaper and probably more functional firearm as you point out.

Or if shooting cartridges is their goal they could buy a decent modern revolver cheaper and definitely have a much more functional firearm. I'll bet a person could poke around awhile and buy a decent used SA revolver for very close to the cost of a new conversion cylinder by itself.

So who's buying these cylinders and why?
 
I bought one for my ROA because sometimes I feel like shooting C&B and sometimes feel like shooting cartridges.
 
John, yep and my 1875 Remmy has the exact same grip and balance of my 1858 remmy replicas most folks can't readily tell the difference, when I wanna go cartridges I use the 75 for Cap&ball onea the 58s.....
 
Stiker, now that you mention it I bought a 50 Cal. NEF when they first came out at Gander Mountain and was surprised to be background checked and had to fill out the papers. Due to the manufacturer's statement that some time in the future they would be supply centerfire barrels for the gun. That was 4years ago and the NEF is still dragging their heels about it. The last I heard about the company would need the owner to ship the reciever back to have individual barrel fitted to your reciever. This was in Ohio
 
I bought one for my ROA because sometimes I feel like shooting C&B and sometimes feel like shooting cartridges.
You could have bought another gun to shoot cartridges out of for what you paid. And it would have been a lot easier to load.

Guess it's the engineer in me, but even if I had money to burn it would be a LONG time before I got around to buying a conversion cylinder for my ROA. Unless of course I couldn't get my hands on a cartridge firing revolver any other way...
 
dstorm,

Good points, and frankly one not considered when I made the comment "If an individual buys a cap and ball pistol and a cartridge conversion cylinder at the same time, I would process it as regular firearm."

So, no sales of both at the same time. This will avoid any issues.
 
Just buy a percussion revolver, buy a conversion cylinder, and have fun, whatever your definition of fun may be.

Conversion cylinders are not cheap - anywhere from $200-350.
The BP gun itself is between $200-$350 as well.

So at the end of this, you have spent $400-700 for a smoothbore (iirc most bps are smooth) handgun with all the benefits of 19th century ergonomics capable of firing up to six cowboy downloaded .45LC cartridges (or 5 if you believe that the hammer ought to sit on an empty chamber).

to load or unload that firearm, you need to essentially field strip the gun.

I seriously doubt any criminally minded person is going to go this route simply to obtain a weapon with which to engage in criminal activity. I can ostensibly see someone using a BP gun for crime, but I don't see them going the extra mile just so their cylinder can have brass in it.

Now where this does come into play is that a person prohibited for some BS reason like public urination can have a gun with which to defend himself at home. I don't see anything wrong with that. Six (or five) shots is enough to protect yourself with if you are already behind a locked door.
 
You could have bought another gun to shoot cartridges out of for what you paid.
I paid $200 for a used cylinder. If I could have found an old model Vaquero in 45 Colt I would have bought it in a heartbeat. (BTW - if you know of one at that price please let me know). I also did it because I wanted to, and the gun is fun to shoot.
 
If anyone is interested, the Kittery Trading Post (Maine) has (or had recently) a used R&D drop-in cylinder for an 1860 .44 for $170.00. From what I understand, that is a good price. If not, educate me.
 
Can any of you actually think of an instance where a converted BP revolver was used in a crime? If so, was it even fired?

I've never heard of a single instance but my exposure to such things is limited.
 
Ok, I'll bite. Why DO people pay the premium to buy a Cap&Ball revolver PLUS a conversion cylinder?

They could buy JUST the Cap&Ball if shooting BP is their goal and have much cheaper and probably more functional firearm as you point out.

Or if shooting cartridges is their goal they could buy a decent modern revolver cheaper and definitely have a much more functional firearm. I'll bet a person could poke around awhile and buy a decent used SA revolver for very close to the cost of a new conversion cylinder by itself.

So who's buying these cylinders and why?
I can speak for myself....I lived in MD....'nuff said.

But to add to that anyway, I bought my revolver before the conversion cylinders were available and at the time they became available the conversion cylinder was not just a novelty, but also probably cheaper than buying a replica cartridge revolver (in MD not only are some revolvers not legal to be sold here because of the "handgun roster", but they are also more expensive than many other parts of the country).
Also, about the MD thing, the state of MD asks some very personal questions on their application form to buy a handgun and all firearms that the state regulates sold here gets recorded into a database forever. They have a list of all Marylanders that ever bought a handgun or regulated rifle/shotgun from a MD dealer.....I did not want to be on that list.
I have a C&R license and I have bought many handguns with it and even though there is a record of my purchase somewhere and the state knows I have a license, there is at least no central database of what guns I own.

And no, I am not being paranoid about the database. As just one example when we had the Beltway sniper shootings, numerous AR15 owners in that area recieved unnanounced visits from the State Police and FBI agents wanting to test fire their rifles. They got the names from that database.

Another advanage of a conversion cylinder is they are tough. When my cheap Pietta replica gives out, I can buy another one and slip the same cylinder in it. It has already happened once.
 
(iirc most bps are smooth)

What? No they're not.

My Uberti 58 Remmie replica shoots about as well as a modern revolver. Accurate enough to really surprise people who think the old guns must shoot poorly, and that's just loading from an old-style flask where you hold your finger over the spout to roughly measure the load.

When I said, "bulky", I should have noted that I like the ergonomics. It's just that the sucker is about 14" long, not particularly concealable unless you're one big muchacho and it's a very cold Winter.

I don't think a 7.5" Blackhawk is a common gun used by criminals, either.

People use them for various things, usually with some historical flavor, like CAS or wild west show gunfight reenactments. Some of them even have a rear cover plate that resembles the cap-n-ball cylinder rear. That makes them useful for Civil War reenactors who just want to drop in some blanks rather than carrying powder in the field.

If, however, you just want a cartridge single action, the matte finish Uberti SAA clone is a fine gun. I put in a set of Wolffs, and for under 300 bucks brand new including springs, I have a great shooting single action that has a loading gate. For the price of a full DIY Remmie conversion (cylinder and ejector; you have to machine it and touch up the finish yourself), you can buy a nice 1875 replica and have both.

Clearly, the cylinders are selling to people who want something other than a cheap single action.:)

Clint Eastwood did a lot to shove aside the old Hollywood image, where everyone in the world suddenly bought a Colt SAA in 1873, the moment they came out, along with the Winchester 1892. Hell, in some of old Hollywood's depictions of the 1850s, everyone had an 1873 and an 1892.

Since Eastwood's movies, when you see a western, you'll see a variety of guns, like top-breaks, cartridge conversions, cap-n-ball guns, Remmies, etc. Reenactors have followed suit, and want something more interesting and authentic than an 1873 Colt in every holster.
 
Well, I lucked out and bought a nice Euroarms 1858 with a conversion cylinder for $225 from a nice man on the net. I think he even frequents here. If this hadn't happened I'd likely have never had the money for a conversion cylinder. Most of my shooting is with the C&B cylinder but I like the ability to drop a loaded cylinder in and have a loaded firearm in less than 30 seconds. With small children at home I feel pretty safe with this setup.
 
SWC, your missing the point partner its not about if they have been used in a crime.... its about taxes and the BATF wants to be paid their excise taxes for anything they can classify as a firearm in this case that means any cartridge fireing gun........ 85% of the laws regarding firearms have nothing at all to do with criminal use its about $$$ and if ya don't pay em their taxes they will lock ya up...

Shotgun, ya can drop a loaded percusion cyl. in the 58 in the exact same amount of time ;)
 
dstorm1911's got it right.

Cap and ball revolvers are exempt from the tax, and BATFE's jurisdiction. (F Troop is fundamentally a tax-collecting agency.)

Cartridge revolvers are not. So if it can be defined as a cartridge revolver, they want their money, just like the IRS wants their money if there's something they can legally define as "income".
 
SWC, your missing the point partner its not about if they have been used in a crime.... its about taxes and the BATF wants to be paid their excise taxes for anything they can classify as a firearm in this case that means any cartridge fireing gun........ 85% of the laws regarding firearms have nothing at all to do with criminal use its about $$$ and if ya don't pay em their taxes they will lock ya up...
They get revenue through taxes now by the sale of replica cap and ball guns. For the imported guns there is an import tax and on the ones made here the corportions pay an income tax. If they start taxing and regulating cap and ball revolvers or conversion cylinders, then the sales will drop and taxes they lose from import and income tax probably will offset the revenue from the new tax.
 
For the imported guns there is an import tax and on the ones made here the corportions pay an income tax

"They" don't get the taxes.

BATFE's job is to collect taxes on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Income taxes (IRS) and tariffs (CBP) are not their concern, either way.

That's how bureaucracy works. Hell, that's how the world works.
 
"They" don't get the taxes.

BATFE's job is to collect taxes on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Income taxes (IRS) and tariffs (CBP) are not their concern, either way.
"They" don't collect those taxes, but they do "get" the taxes. It is all the same government and the only reason they enforced collection of taxes is because they were a branch of the Treasury Department.

They can try to tax something to justify the existence or the growth of their administration, but they are subject to Congressional oversight. Why would they do something that can have consequences and incur the wrath of a senate committee?
 
ArmedBear, I'm tempted to start a new thread and call it 'know too much about firearms and pissed about most western movies'. It is rare to see an accurate movie when it comes to time and the firearms available. I can count on one hand the movies that are not blatantly incorrect about the firearms.
 
Democrat-controlled Senate committees don't look at "discredited" things like "supply and demand", which they consider to be a myth promulgated by Ronald Reagan when he stole the country from the noble and great Jimmy Carter with his lies.

In the Senate, taxes have no impact on the demand for a good, or the amount someone will work. If a software engineer works 80 hours per week and earns $120K, you can take $90K from him in taxes and he will still happily work just as hard.
 
ArmedBear, I'm tempted to start a new thread and call it 'know too much about firearms and pissed about most western movies'. It is rare to see an accurate movie when it comes to time and the firearms available. I can count on one hand the movies that are not blatantly incorrect about the firearms.

LOL

Do it! Start the thread!

Deadwood did pretty well, and it was a TV series. Of course David Milch is one anal-retentive perfectionist, but I like that in a writer/producer, especially when he's dealing with historical material.:)
 
I paid $200 for a used cylinder. If I could have found an old model Vaquero in 45 Colt I would have bought it in a heartbeat. (BTW - if you know of one at that price please let me know).
Yup, a used cylinder is bound to be a bit cheaper. However, most of the places I look sell the ROA conversion cylinders for $240 to $320 (depending on the finish & other options) before shipping--you can certainly buy a complete .45LC revolver in that price range, here's one described as LNIB that went for $280 shipped on THR earlier this year.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3059402#post3059402
 
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