ATF gone wild! (Custom gunsmiths beware!)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by only1asterisk, Mar 31, 2006.

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  1. Jingolaw

    Jingolaw Member

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    Thank you all for the welcome.

    David, some details lead us to believe that Mr. Crow's experience may not be isolated, and/or may become systematic in the future. Details are still coming in, though, and the situation remains dynamic. We will adapt our approach as necessary.

    -Eric Swartz
    Office of Legislative Counsel
    National Rifle Association - Institute for Legislative Action
     
  2. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    That's unfortunate.

    Mr. Swartz, I've been a critic of the NRA's lack of responsiveness and fund raising tactics for some time. I’ve often felt that the organization left the membership. I’m glad you stopped by today. I let my membership lapse some time ago. I think I’ll renew it today and make a donation to the NRA-ILA while I’m at it.

    Thank you for stopping by, don’t be so long between visits.

    David
     
  3. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

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    I have a hard time trusting a man who signed the Patriot Act into law to protect gun owners rights.

    I have a hard time seeing a Party of whom one of the members made up an unconstitutional law which prohibits free speech before an election protecting our rights.

    That being said, I'm not running to the Democrats. But our choice is between a half blind WWI vet holding an ol' Springfield while 20 men with M-16s and night vision bear down on him.

    What's the alternative? The 20 men with machineguns.

    Look, the ATF is abusing it's power b/c the neo-con agenda is "Hand money to law enforcement without oversight."

    We should remember though, neo cons respect money and votes, nothing more, nothing less. Let's either bribe them (I consider that a losing game). Or give 'em the boot. Replace 'em with more traditional folks that will hold the ATF over the coals when they try to hurt us.
     
  4. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    I'd like to, as well. But that's not always an option offered to us. In some cases, a true conservative/libertarian republican is not electable. In other cases, it's choose between the RINO (or "neo-con," as you called them) or the gun-grabbing raving socialist.

    Are we willing for it to get worse in order for it to get better? That is, shall we vote out the RINOs allowing the state/country to see what the leftists will do and "teach the RINOs a lesson"? Perhaps state-by-state. But all at once could be really painful -- and irrevocable in some cases. Would the new "retro-con" be willing or able to repeal the harm done during the hiatus of reason? I don't know.
     
  5. Marshall

    Marshall Member

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    Not this dude. My experience is that things don't come back overnight, many times not at all, many times they get even worse. I'm not willing to test those waters.
     
  6. madmike

    madmike Member

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    Yes, because trusting people to see how bad the Nazis were and vote them out worked so WELL for the Jews, Gypsies, gays, trade unionists, Catholics and Communists in Germany.
     
  7. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    Obviously, in order to justify their budget the BATFE has gone looking for untapped revenue sources.

    I rather doubt this will affect the home gunsmith, but if you have a business adding value to stock parts, you may find a few more federal lampreys attached to your wallet.

    i imagine custom guns just experienced a price increase.
     
  8. Kharn

    Kharn Member

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    The problem is that (at the moment) only an 07 FFL (manufacturer) can pay the Federal Excise Tax, there's no mechanism in place for any other FFL to be able to pay it.

    Kharn
     
  9. Langenator

    Langenator Member

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    Now, I'm far from an expert in where, exactly, funds from these various taxes (FAET) and license fees (for various FFL types) go, but is it possible that this might be, long range, the ultimate objective for the BATFE?

    I'm told that FAET monies go wildlife conservation or somesuch, not the BATFE coffers. So they wouldn't have a money reason to do this. (Of course, expansion of power is always a reason for .gov agencies to do what they do.)

    Here are my questions: are 'smiths required to have an FFL? Do 07 FFLs have to pay a higher fee than 'smiths? And does the money from FFL fees go to the BATFE?

    If an FFL for manufacture has higher fees than one for a smith, is it possible that the BATFE is trying to get smiths reclassified as manufacturers in order to collect the higher fees from them, and increase their revenue that way?
     
  10. ctdonath

    ctdonath Member

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    At what point does "shall not be infringed" come back into play?
     
  11. Kharn

    Kharn Member

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    Langetor:
    A gunsmith would typically have an 01 FFL, your standard commercial gunstore license. The 07 FFL has the same abilities as an 01, but also allows the manufacture of weapons for sale.

    If I recall correctly, an 01 FFL is $200 for the first three years, and $90 every three years after that. An 07 FFL is $150 every three years. Plus, usually an 07 must be in an area zoned for industrial activities, not many stripmalls allow that.

    Kharn
     
  12. wayneinFL

    wayneinFL Member

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    In 2004 I asked a BATFE agent about this. He told me that if I made substantial changes to firearms it would be manufacturing, although he couldn't give me examples.

    It's a little scary we have the enforcement branch interpreting the law for themselves.
     
  13. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    A little ... :confused:

    :uhoh:
     
  14. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Mods: another application of sticky stuff, please?.....
     
  15. madmike

    madmike Member

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    Agents in the field arrogate a lot of knowledge and authority to themselves. If it's not on paper from the Technology Branch, it's meaningless.

    Which doesn't stop them from jailing you while this is sorted out.:banghead:
     
  16. sm

    sm member

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    Agree!
     
  17. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    I didn't ask for this thread to be stuck, nor unstuck. I think it fine as it is. I think the title change is not exactly correct. While the current target of enforcement may be gunsmiths, this matter concerns us all. When we have an agency like the ATF that inconsistently enforces completely arbitrary policy as law it is a serious issue for us all when they make such radical changes.

    David
     
  18. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    You mean the one that would have signed a new AWB if it had come
    across his desk in 2004?

    Come on, there's 50% off on a plasma screen TV if you're willing to trade
    your freedom for security today :evil:

    Or the judicial branch legislating new laws, or the executive branch...

    That said, and with my keen skepticism of guvmint intentions aside, any
    other "industry" or "business" where you made nearly *50* of any kind of
    regulated items per year for sale to the public would also require applicable
    state taxes and local zoning rules to be in effect. Can you imagine someone
    who assembled (from parts) 49 cars or motorcycles per year and sold them
    to the public out of their front yard? How about 49 gas furnaces? How
    about 49 woodstoves for use inside of mobile homes?

    The key here is someone who makes items for sale to the public. If you
    assemble your own AR/AK/FAL/91 from parts for personal use and don't
    start selling them to people, ie which would by accepted long held legal
    defenition be engaging in a *business*, then there's absolutely nothing to
    worry about.

    LOL, even if you were a Non-profit organisation that sought to make sure
    low-income families were well-armed with the latest tricked out AR15,
    you would still have to pay all applicable taxes and be doing it out of a
    properly zoned location. This would be no different than any other NPO
    out there.

    If you weren't doing that, you would likely have more legal trouble from
    your local zoning board than the BATFE! :D
     
  19. madmike

    madmike Member

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    Your :D disturbs me, sir. Does the legal suffering of others for engaging in honest business amuse you?

    Are you sure? Remember during the AWB that putting parts on an EXISTENT receiver constituted "making an illegal assault weapon" if it hadn't already been assembled in said form before the date.

    And this gentleman apparently didn't SELL the weapon. He took someone's existing weapon and CHANGED NON-RECEIVER PARTS.

    Not to worry, though. It's only dealers, manufacturers, Class III owners, gunsmiths and customizers who have to worry. So far.

    First they came for the dealers, and I said nothing, because I was just an owner...:rolleyes:
     
  20. madmike

    madmike Member

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    I can easily imagine someone who builds 49 new roofs a year from his house. Or knives (me). Or who rebuilds engines in his garage. Or 49 computers a year from his home. Zoning does not apply if the operation is not visible, not signed and does not involve HAZMAT. There is no suggestion that this custom craftsman was NOT collecting appropriate state sales tax on work performed for residents within the state (assuming his state has tax on labor rather than just on goods). I rather hope he's innocent until proven guilty.

    But nah, he's an evul capitalist, so @#$^ him.

    If that's not what you were trying to say, and I've misinterpreted your glee, please correct me.
     
  21. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    Thin Black Line,

    What are you talking about? This doesn't have the least bit to do with zoning. It has to do with an absurd interpretation of the federal excise tax on the manufacture of guns (vile and odious in itself). The excise tax was paid when these guns were made. The AFT claims that the gunsmith in question should pay the taxes again because he made changes to guns.

    I don’t think it really has anything to do with taxes. I think it is more about harrying gunsmiths than anything else.


    David
     
  22. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    Zoning can apply to just about any kind of business depending on State,
    county, township, city regs. Yes, I am completely aware of many people
    who sell services/products or manufacture out of their home. Many,
    including most of you, would be surprised to learn that it would in fact
    be counted as a business that would fall under zoning rules. Many
    localities even regulate the number and size of garage sales that can
    be held in a year.

    No, and neither does ignorance --just the opposite. Given the zoning
    boards in many areas, many would-be small business owners have MORE
    to worry about from hacks at the local level than the feds. I and many
    members of my extended family are small business owners, independent
    contractors, and retail merchants. People who work for other people and
    have their taxes taken out of their paychecks think the only difference is
    that I file quarterly. Don't even get me started on liability issues with
    small business as that is a whole different can of worms. There are
    plenty of people unknowingly operating outside the law in their "business"
    --don't ride my * about educating people that there is often far more
    involved than getting a license and paying federal excise and state sales tax
    when it comes to the legal operation of a business.

    No, possibly a capitalist that needed to do more research on what's legal
    or possibly a gross error on the guvmint's part? Maybe both? Quite
    frankly, you can walk into any business in this country and find some sort
    of violation. As an independent contractors, I don't like all the regulations
    either.

    Here's something that really happened to consider:

    There was this old guy who asked an FFL dealer at the gunshow over the
    weekend about taking the thumbhole stock off his imported AK and putting a
    pistol grip on it. First thing out of FFL's mouth is "Sure you can now that the
    ban has ended!" I jump in with the "not-so-fast-how-about-the-US-parts
    count?" interjection. Old guy gives me the "you're on the wrong side of
    the table to know anything about this" look. Mr FFL is getting a little nervous
    at this point (Hmmm, he does look like he works for the guvmint) and
    begins stammering about having to check into that a bit more. By now
    the customer has heard what he wants to hear and is already saying
    "Thanks, that's all I needed to know" and walks off --maybe to the AK
    parts kit table two aisles over? Eh, whatever.

    Gee, guys, who knew a thing or two about the issue? The FFL or little ole
    me :rolleyes: ? :D

    And, of course, we all know everything we need to know about the issue
    that started this thread!

    Here's another :D Cheers! :D
     
  23. madmike

    madmike Member

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    TBL: Then you know:

    That that is utterly untrue, so why did you say it?

    You certainly DO have to worry if you assemble something using incorrect parts, any Class III parts, modify a C&R, put together an "assault weapon" in a ban locale...

    My guess is that changing caliber on the revolvers mentioned could, in fact, be considered "manufacturing a firearm," and so could the process of taking someone's numbered receiver that is NOT functional and installing parts so it is.

    So EVERYONE has something to worry about.
     
  24. Aguila Blanca

    Aguila Blanca Member

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    God forbid any owner should have the temerity to replace the hammer on a 1911 with a different style hammer. Or change the :eek: barrel! Or (heaven forbid) put a different upper on an old AR-15.

    Once they make this new definition of "manufacturing" stick, they can stick it on anyone. It's really an inventive display of linguistic legerdemain -- first you define "manufacturing" as creating the part that bears the serial number, then you redefine "manufacturing" as making alterations to anything that attaches to the part that has the serial number. I am left scratching my ignorant head, wondering "If 'manufacturing a firearm' is 'making substantive changes to a firearm,' how does a 'firearm' come to be created in the first instance?"
     
  25. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    If you ask me this Thread needs to bee Sticky'd!

    this is no small matter.
     
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