ATF: Licensed gun store burglaries/robberies up 52 percent nationwide

[Aim1]

Well, the information is out there on how suspects are getting guns, thefts of people, gun shops, trains, burglaries, and straw purchases. So much for "loose gun laws" being the problem.





http://wjla.com/news/local/atf-reports-increase-in-gun-store-robberies-nationwide-including-va-md

ATF: Licensed gun store burglaries/robberies up 52 percent nationwide

by Kevin Lewis/ ABC7

Friday, March 10th 2017

WASHINGTON (ABC7) — The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) reports there has been a significant spike in the amount of licensed gun stores falling victim to criminals nationwide. Last month, the federal law enforcement agency compiled a detailed public report documenting the perplexing uptick.

According to the ATF, in 2012, there were 377 burglaries of licensed gun stores nationwide. In 2016, that figure rose to 558 - a 48 percent increase. In 2012, there were 12 robberies of licensed gun stores nationwide. In 2016, that figure rose to 33 - a staggering 175 percent increase.

All combined, 7,858 firearms were stolen from licensed gun dealers in 2016, 76 percent more than in 2012. The ATF highlights that many of the weapons were sold for top dollar on the black market in cities across America, in turn, contributing to increased crime and violence.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

One happened here locally. I worry that the gov't will create undue burdens on the shops to protect their products rather than going after the thieves. If they make it too expensive for a shop to stay in business they will have to shut down. Of course, can't punish the thieves as they should be which would end it all soon.

 

[Aim1]

One happened here locally. I worry that the gov't will create undue burdens on the shops to protect their products rather than going after the thieves. If they make it too expensive for a shop to stay in business they will have to shut down. Of course, can't punish the thieves as they should be which would end it all soon.

Already saw comments stating gun stores need to do more.


What are you supposed to do when suspects drive a stolen car through the front of the store?


Or they hook the doors up to a truck with chains and rip the doors off?

 

[Reloadron]

Already saw comments stating gun stores need to do more.


What are you supposed to do when suspects drive a stolen car through the front of the store?

Steel reinforced concrete post across the front of the building. Seriously, that was suggested as a solution when a smash and grab went down in one of the local suburbs. The hot guns bring a premium especially in places like NYC as can be seen in the recent Brooklyn NY thread and the guns from Virginia. As long as hot guns bring a premium you can expect to see more and more gun shop robberies.

Ron

 

[Dog Soldier]

The stories abound that these guns are going across the Mexican Border. The claim is that they bring Hugh profits.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

One of the main LGS I frequent got hit last year. The only deterrence at the time was glass windows/door.

I won't go into detail but the "gun section" at the rear of the store is now pretty well secured.

I would never claim to blame gun stores for guns being stolen, but the reality is there are a lot of them that could do a better job of securing their firearms during off hours.

 

[acdodd]

There have been a couple locally.
One they broke thru the wall where an air conditioner used to be.
Nothing but a single layer of sheet rock between them and the inside of a building.
Caught the crooks and recovered most of the firearms.
The second was an employ and his buddies.
They broke in, stole a bunch of guns and then set fire to the building.
They were also caught pretty quickly.

 

[jdc1244]

So much for "loose gun laws" being the problem.

This fails as a non-sequitur fallacy.

That criminals obtain guns through criminal acts such as gun shop robberies and straw purchases has no bearing on the merits of firearm regulatory measures.

 

[Ed Ames]

I have a problem with this one.

Maybe it is just where I grew up, but for most of my life gun stores were distinctly security-oriented. Built on raised concrete slabs (so a ramming attempt would hit the slab and not the building), in parking lots that were segmented off so that vehicles couldn't get a run at the building, no windows, bollards, double (jewelry store/bank style) entries, ETC.. On top of that, it was standard practice to clear the cabinet of handguns every night, lock up the long guns in the racks, etc.. That was very true in California and even when I moved to Texas most gun sellers were obviously security focused. I believed that the ATF required a certain level of security for new FFL licencees.

Three or four years ago many new gunstores started opening up in strip malls, not only leaving the guns in the glass cabinets after closing but putting handguns out on open tables where you could pick them up. I've seen boxed pistols on shelves/tables for you to pick up and take to the register, even silencers treated the same way. These were not empty boxes - I know because I opened a few.

And then I went to one of those stores and the front was smashed out, there were tire tracks ripping up the carpet, and a news crew was interviewing the owner.

And then I went to another of the newly opened strip mall stores and yep, plywood windows and smashed display cases...

One of the local strip mall stores has now been hit twice and has a GoFundMe campaign going trying to get customers to pay for bollards to go in front of the store. As far as I know they still leave the guns out in the display cases overnight.

On the other hand, the reason for the thefts is the gun prohibition movement creating black markets for stolen guns. the regulatory framework has actually created crime (not simply making previously legal acts illegal, but inducing an increase in acts that were already illegal).

 

[George Dickel]

There have been a few in my area also. The LGS where I do most of my business spent thousands of dollars on display cases that have lockable roll up doors that have a time guarantee on how long they can withstand forced entry. Definitely more time than a thief has before the police arrive. His is a leased building so I don't know if his landlord would allow concrete barriers to be installed and more than likely wouldn't even consider doing it on his dime.

 

[loffpit44]

i think all the gun stores should have better security, if we want guns and need to protect ourselves against terror and criminal we should have the behavior of people of know what they are doing, this is one of the things the Dems and gun haters are going to us against us. these guns are definitely gonna be used for crimes and they are prolly registered to no one making it hard to trace.

 

[Reloadron]

Just caught on morning news, a relatively new gun shop (Point Blank) up here in NE Ohio was the scene of a smash and grab last night. Not sure what they got if anything. Waiting on details.

Ron

 

[Tirod]

Larger gun stores can't lock up the guns in the safe every night. Too many guns and too little payroll spending hours each day doing it.

What we have is a dependence on electronic security - alarms and motion detectors - rather than physical security, like hardened barriers, assault resistant window film, bollards, etc. There is a lot of marketing about electronic security and it's benefits, but the reality as being demonstrated is that when the perps check to see what the response time is to an alarm and discover they have ten to thirty minutes of free time before the cops show up - electronics become a major waste of money. They didn't STOP - and we have had discussions on what it takes to stop someone before.

If your security can't physically stop entry by human powered means it's inadequate. Period. That is why gun safes are rated by the number of minutes they withstand assault. None are considered "proof" against it. Just like an expensive Dive rated watch if you put enough pressure on it - go over the depth rating - it will crack and leak. Beat on my gun security cabinet I have and you can and will pry it open. I'm not so sure you even need tools - it's light enough your bare hands might. A gun in a glass case behind glass doors? Unless your electronic security has motion sensor guided aiming and a number of Tasers hooked up, humans will break the glass, walk in, fill up their gym bags, and for all that, take the time to be choosy about it, too. Nothing is physically stopping them.

So, if some state or jurisdiction does pass a law to increase the security on guns stored on commercial property, it's not us to be blamed, it's incompetent store owners who are incapable of making good decisions about how to store their inventory. Since they are the problem and won't offer a solution, we should. Don't buy from them. Put them out of business.

Not going to happen is it? Because they likely have lower overhead due to not paying long term construction costs to improve security or build their own store. Less overhead = competitive pricing = more sales = more profit. Strip mall gun stores can make better money living in a glass house. Since the free enterprise system prefers that, and laws are biased to promote it, we are back to square one.

More sting operations buying stolen guns are in order. How many were scheduled and executed in Chicago last year? Right - nobody even knows, yet I speculate that a lot of the strip mall gun stores are in more urban locations in restrictive areas than rural. Simple demographic odds show that is the more likely situation. Locally I know of most with bars over the windows, security doors behind the glass doors, security filmed glass cases, at least one with tilt up concrete construction. They make the store the safe and they don't get broken into. Much like the auto parts stores around here. Hmm.

Strangely enough when one I worked at was hit by a truck - it was in a strip mall . . . and I don't see how the motion detectors, door alarms, or floor safe is going to stop a 4,000 pound truck at 35mph going thru the glass. A decent quality cattle bumper won't even get bent. You'd then get the time you need - because when you need a cop they can deliver pizza quicker, and guaranteed - to sort thru the offerings load up and leave.

It's not you and me, it's the gun stores in glass houses, folks, expect new regulations to prohibit them there. I don't think we will win the argument, and what we do need to do is lighten up on the purse strings. Either you let the store owner have a bit more profit to secure his guns or he will be mandated to do it with no choice. I suspect the latter course will be necessary because the general shooting public won't be impressed by the situation and certainly won't pay $5 a gun for better security. They will just shop elsewhere, and that means a bigger store with more volume - which will put the local smaller guy out of business.

So, we have seen the enemy, and he is us.

 

[loffpit44]

Just caught on morning news, a relatively new gun shop (Point Blank) up here in NE Ohio was the scene of a smash and grab last night. Not sure what they got if anything. Waiting on details.

Ron

Gun store should be the worst place to rob but now a days they are on the news a little too often, from my opinion. there must be an inside man somehow,

 

[Ed Ames]

Larger gun stores can't lock up the guns in the safe every night.

It seems as though the smaller stores are less likely to do that sort of thing. I've shopped at larger gun stores that clearly did. You would see the cases start to empty out about an hour before closing time. I am not saying this is necessary by the way, but a variation on what you said:

If your security can't physically stop entry by human powered means it's inadequate. Period

That's really what bugs me about some of these new stores. Glass windows, glass display cases, long guns up on hooks that cannot be secured. Less thought given to security than your average guitar store...and that would be fine if they put in some extra work, but apparently they don't. If you are opening a shop on a budget and can't afford physical security for the whole store then you should take the labor hit and secure the inventory when you close.

If you can afford secure cabinets and lockable long gun racks, window/door coverings, bollards, ETC. then maybe it isn't a problem to consider the whole store your vault when you close, but I can't imagine a jewelry store or anyone else with expensive merchandise that would follow the security standards I've seen at some of the new gun stores.

What we have is a dependence on electronic security - alarms and motion detectors - rather than physical security

I think we're also seeing a certain amount of disregard for security in general.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I frequent a local gun store downtown. He has two large commercial safes (not the home rec room size but industrial). At the end of the day the guns come off the rack and out of the counter and into the safes. And he has iron bars on the windows and doors.

Criminals stealing guns is not news just because the news media just now paid attention to it. It is not a new trend.

James D. Wright and Peter Rossi, "Armed and Considered Dangerous", (Aldine 1986, 2nd ed 2008, ISBN-13: 978-0202362427), the NIJ Felon Survey 1,874 felons convicted of armed crime, 18 prisons, 10 states. The felons surveyed "obtain guns in hard-to-regulate ways from hard-to-regulate sources. . . Swaps, purchases, and trades among private parties (friends and family members) represent the dominant pattern of acquisition within the illicit firearms market." Criminals simply are less likely to go to legal sources, such as gun shops, sporting goods stores or pawnbrokers. Authors' summary at: http://www.rkba.org/research/wright/armed-criminal.summary.html
Of gun using felons in 1986,
50% expected to unlawfully purchase a gun through unregulated channels within a week of release from custody: friends (mostly fellow criminals), from "the street" (used guns from strangers), from fences or the blackmarket or drug dealers (who often run guns along with drugs);
25% expected to be able to borrow a gun from a fellow criminal,
about 12% expected to steal a gun for personal use.
7% cited licensed gun dealers and 6% cited pawnshops (usually through a surrogate buyer, a family member or lover).

40% of the felons surveyed reported stealing firearms, 12% reported stealing guns for personal use, almost 3 out of 4 who stole guns did so for trade or resale.
1986 Sources stolen from included:
37% stole from stores,
15% from police,
16% from truck shipments,
8% from manufacturers.

The prison inmate surveys on Firearms Use by Offenders is repeated every six or seven years or so by the National Institute of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.
2004 Source of firearms possessed by state prison inmates at time of offense
11.3% Retail Purchase or trade
_ 7.3 - Retail store
_ 2.6 - Pawnshop
_ 0.6 - Flea market
_ 0.8 - Gun show
37.4% Family or friend**
_ 12.2 - Purchased or traded
_ 14.1 - Rented or borrowed
_ 11.1 - Other
40.0% Street/illegal source
_ 7.5 - Theft or burglary
_25.2 - Drug dealer/off street
_ 7.4 - Fence/black market
11.2% Other source

 

[loffpit44]

in any case, this is a bad look for all gun lover and it will affect us someday

 

[CapnMac]

gonna be used for crimes and they are prolly registered to no one making it hard to trace.

Well, even those few states with registration, ues, it's impossible to "register" and arm before it is sold.
The B(AT)FE records will show factory to distributor, then distributor to LGS, where their disposition will then read "stolen by parties unknown."

 

[MachIVshooter]

This fails as a non-sequitur fallacy.

That criminals obtain guns through criminal acts such as gun shop robberies and straw purchases has no bearing on the merits of firearm regulatory measures.

Are you kidding me? It has everything to do with the (lack of) merits of regulatory measures. It tracks back to simplistic platitudes like "outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns".

Were you just looking for a way to apply a type of fallacy you learned about yesterday or something? Because you clearly didn't think it through.

 

[George Dickel]

If gun owners back a government mandated requirement that gun shops lock up all guns in secure containers that also allows the government to dictate the level of security the container provides. You should know how government works, especially if liberals are in charge. I can see a storage requirement that would equal a bank vault. If I was a gun shop owner I think I would come up with something to secure my inventory in just to reduce the paperwork required should a burglary occur. If the problem becomes bigger the insurance companies will set requirements on the shop for security or premium rates would skyrocket or lose their coverage. I would imagine a good portion of the stolen guns come from individual residences also. Are we going to require secure storage in our homes? In Europe gun owners are have to provide secure storage for their guns and the level of security is quite high. You really have to want to own a firearm there because of the security requirements and their costs.

Looking at the stats posted above, it makes a good argument by the anti-gun types that private gun sales should be required to go through an FFL. Quite a number of guns were obtained from family/friends. Can you say Universal Background Checks? Every time we concede to the anti-gun faction the slope just gets steeper and more slippery.