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ATF moving the goalposts?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Cannibul, Oct 7, 2020.

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  1. Cannibul

    Cannibul Member

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    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/10/06/honey-badger-pistol-2/

    Other companies use the exact same brace. The samples asked for use very common braces.

    What gets me is that you can purchase an item that's supposed to be legal according to the ATF, then their time of the month comes and suddenly it's illegal. All this by regulation, not law.
     
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  2. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    Somehow, I'm not surprised.

    Dancing that close to the edge, one can't really cry about taking a fall.
     
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  3. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Jekyll and Hyde policy makers.
     
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  4. mcb

    mcb Member

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    The laws (pertaining to anything and especially firearms) should be written so clear that I can walk right up to the very edge and stop and have no doubt I am still legal. There should be no grey area in the law. When grey area is discovered I would argue it is the duty of our elected governmental officials to make that grey area disappear back into a clear black and white status.
     
  5. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    That's kind of the point of ATF regulations. Technology moves faster than legislation, thus necessitating something that can change with it. Building codes are a good example, and legislators deferring to doctors for medical questions is quite common.
    And in reading the cease and desist letter, the ATF specifically cites the brace as being intended to be used as a shoulder stock, meaning that a different brace might be just fine. If I owned one, I would take it apart for the time being until this shakes out, or register the thing and get an actual stock.
     
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  6. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    That would certainly be my preference. But considering the political divide, we really can't expect such decisive action from Congress. But technology and innovation progress and legislation often lags behind it.
     
  7. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    Same thing that got cheap Russian surplus 7N6 ammo outlawed.

    Gun nuts: It's not a SBR, its a pistol!! HAR HAR HAR!!! Take dat ATF!!!1uno
    ATF: Oh, ok. Now the cheap ammo for your "pistol" is banned because armor piercing stuff in handguns is illegal.
    Gun nuts: *bbq flavored grumbling*
     
  8. Steve S.

    Steve S. Member

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    I do not think that they are moving the goal posts, I think that they are just trying to keep up. Private enterprise has always been the innovator, the bureaucracy is a parasite - adds cost, control, confusion and stagnation. Many times our government endeavors are simply a joke, many times our entire government is a joke. It is something we live with right now.
     
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  9. Poper

    Poper Member

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    Ding, ding, ding!!!
    We have a winner, Johnny!
     
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  10. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    I've always been leery of the AR/AK pistols, for that reason.

    For me, once you get beyond a certain size, firearms become uncontrollable without being able to "brace them". Mankind figured out the most efficient means of bracing a large portable gun has been to shoulder them. Shooting from the hip looks cool in the movies, but is impractical due to being unable to aim.

    Barrel length aside, when we're talking about an AK, AR, sub-machine gun (style) like the MP5 or PPS etc, I personally want to shoulder it for functional use.
     
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  11. Laggy

    Laggy Member

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    Regina Lombardo. ATF Director. Appointed by William Barr. Funny, but I don’t recall filling in a bubble for either of them.

    The R boot on my neck is cutting off my air supply same as D boot. Weird.
     
  12. Laggy

    Laggy Member

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    You want government to clear up the mud that they created? Let me know how that works out lol.
     
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  13. Laggy

    Laggy Member

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    Functionality is definitely not in ATF vocabulary. The ATF defines pistols as meant to be shot with one hand. Um no one is dual wielding Glock 20’s like Wyatt Earp in Tombstone. Absurd.
     
  14. DukeConnor

    DukeConnor Member

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    i believe this brace has a but pad and not the split that allows it to go over your arm.

    so basically it is a stock.
     
  15. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    The brace in question is split. Though it is hard to tell for me from the pictures if the opening is actually big enough to fit one's arm though it.

    honey badger brace.jpg
     
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  16. 340PD

    340PD Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that bump stocks were approved by the ATF and letters were provided to the buyer. Well, we all know how that went.
    I believe it is the same for "braced" firearms.
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong as I am old and my brain is going south.
    The ATF is not our friend and if the wrong party gets into office expect to see a lot more unfavorable decree's. I for one am not even applying for a suppressor until after the election for fear they will fall into the "illegal to own" bucket.
     
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  17. GE-Mini-Gun

    GE-Mini-Gun Member

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    The brace in question has a longer OAL...which makes it an SBR. Actually it seems you can measure a current "legal" brace and change out the grip and get a longer length, throwing you into the SBR range. I do not own an braced gun, as I have a bunch of SBR's...the first gun I transferred that was braced I thought it won't be long before they are outlawed...think that time is getting closer unfortunately.
     
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  18. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    This whole thing seems like it could be resolved with a simple change to the law that states that autoloading pistols can't have any sort of forward gripping surface or barrel shroud. Any autoloader that has an accessory rail longer than 3" or so is classed as an SBR. Attaching a vertical foregrip remains a no-no on a pistol.
    Anyone who purchased a braced pistol AR/AK/PCC-pistol/whatever must register the weapon as an SBR but the tax stamp and associated costs are waived until a specified date.
     
  19. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    From my experience, they're at least 50% legal racketeering. An apt comparison indeed.

    Pretty much.

    Anyone with a functional brain could see that this was on thin ice and should have planned accordingly.
     
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  20. Laggy

    Laggy Member

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    Meh. This is proof that the ATF does ATF things regardless of whether a D or R is in office. I'm gonna go ahead and vote for the person that wants to abolish the ATF. Easiest bubble I've ever filled in.
     
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  21. Laggy

    Laggy Member

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    Was literally just talking with an electrician about this RE: arc fault breakers.

    ATF is horrific and should be dissolved, but yes, play on the edge enough and you're bound to fall off
     
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  22. rust collector
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    rust collector Contributing Member

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    Sorry, I think Honey Badger could have stuck with proven designs and been just fine. They tried to push just a little farther into SBR territory, and received pushback. I am happy that we have gotten the accommodation we have on pistol bracing, and I will enjoy them while I can. BATFE is not the bad guy, although they make a fine stalking horse. It's the legislation that authorizes and supports the regs. Whining about BATFE (and heaven knows certain people or offices therein act arbitrarily and capriciously, as in every other executive branch) is treating the symptom, not the cause.
     
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  23. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    This gets well argued over in Legal. Laws are written so that Legislators and Jurists can agree upon the terms used, not for reading comprehension of the commonweal.
    Legal language is very specific and for specific reasons.
     
  24. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    This is severely off topic, but while that's a popular assessment, it isn't really so. Building Code changes move very slowly (complicated by needing municipal concurrence) but with decided certainty.
    As a member of the ICC (Internation Code Council) I can assure you these things are not taken lightly, nor for personal gain, and are very much "written in blood."
     
  25. mcb

    mcb Member

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    But the ATF regulations and interpretations are not written clearly in common language or legal language. Even most of the Federal gun laws are written poorly. There is so much gray area in firearms laws and the way the ATF interprets them to allow one to drive a truck through the grey area in many cases. Pistol braces, bump stocks, binary triggers, Tac-13/Shockwaves, Artillery and Navy Lugers, shoe laces, etc are all products of these poorly written laws.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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