ATF New Pistol Brace Rule now dropping in December 2022

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by citizenconn, Jun 30, 2022.

  1. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    As of right now it would transfer on a 4473 as "other" if it went through a FFL. This can change if/when the rule change on what a frame/receiver is goes into effect. So an individual selling it in a private face to face transfer, it would be handled just like any stripped lower or complete lower that does not have an upper with it.

    This is where things can get confusing since the purchaser doesn't know if it was built first as a rifle or first as a pistol.
     
  2. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Rifle
     
  3. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    According to the new regs, it would be a rifle. A rifle can never become a pistol, but a pistol can become a rifle and back and forth. ATF would consider it to have started life as an SBR.
     
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  4. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    You could call it what ever you wanted to as an individual selling to another individual. You could call it an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator if you wanted to. That does not change what the ATF considers it to be. A lower receiver by itself is just that, a receiver. In which case it transfers the same as any other receiver or frame.

    It is neither a pistol or rifle until it has an upper installed. And if the upper is removed and not sold with the lower, then the lower is nothing more than a receiver.

    For FFL's it would have to transfer as "other" on the 4473 per ATF rules and regulations.

    Granted all of the above is according to the now current ATF definition of what a frame and receiver is. This is all subject to change with the proposed frame/receiver definition rule change.

    And yes we have all seen where some FFL dealers have not filled out the 4473 correctly by marking rifle or pistol instead of the correct "other". Yes a complete AR lower with a rifle stock attached will still transfer an "other" if it has never had an upper installed on it.
     
  5. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    So, I could legally sell, in a face to face private sale, an AR lower that was originally transferred as a pistol, and listed as such on the 4473, because it was shipped with a recently disqualified brace? Even though in PA, private party handgun transfers are required to go through an FFL?
     
  6. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    An AR lower by itself (without an upper installed) does not meet the federal definition of a rifle or a pistol.

    Here is my take on things from a former FFL holder. Current FFL holders can correct me if I am wrong. But if you bring in just a lower to a FFL, the FFL has no way of knowing what the lower receiver started out as. The FFL must go by the configuration that it is in when received and that is also how it must be logged into the A&D book (bound book). So just a lower by itself will have to be logged into the dealer books as a receiver.

    Currently under federal law, you must be 21 or older to purchase a frame or receiver. In this case an AR lower without an upper. It doesn't matter if it has a stock, brace or bare buffer tube on it. It still transfers as "other" on the 4473.

    I am not familiar with PA laws. But if pistols must go through a FFL even for private sales, then there is a good chance that a lower (or any receiver/frame) will have to go through a FFL also. I say this based on the fact that receivers and frames are treated just like handguns as far as how they are transferred, The only difference between a frame/receiver and a handgun is how the 4473 is marked. In either case you must be 21 or older to purchase from a FLL.
     
  7. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    If it was shipped with a disqualifying brace it is the same as if it shipped with a rifle stock.
     
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  8. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    An AR could have been purchased (with the 10" 300 blackout upper and a disqualifying brace installed) as a pistol. The original purchaser could have decided the blackout isn't for him, and sold the upper. Now he has a pistol lower, but it was sold with a disqualifying brace which the BATFE has declared makes the pistol a rifle. So, now it would be legal for that PA resident to transfer the lower (which is the serial-numbered firearm with a 4473 papertrail declaring it to be a pistol) in a private sale without going through an FFL?
     
  9. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    I don't know if all the panic, paranoia, puzzlement, prevarication and pandemonium caused by the perfidious nature of the pistol spreadsheet was the intent of the ATF or just an unintended side effect, but I certainly expect them to take advantage of the high jingo caused by it to pressure the average law abiding citizen into informing on themselves. I have only ever bought one complete AR and that was because years ago, before large frame ARs began to get popular, it was the only way to get a .308 set up the way I wanted. I may or may not have a dozen or more AR pistols in half a dozen chamberings and multiple lengths but unless I get a Roger Stone-like raid the govt will never know. And even then who knows, boat accidents being as prevalent as they are nowadays.
     
  10. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Even with the new changes coming in the Brace ruling, if you sell just the lower receiver by itself it is still transferred as a receiver and the 4473 should be marked as "other". Regardless if a lower has a brace, a stock, or bare buffer tube and does NOT have an upper attached to it, then federally it is a receiver only since it does not meet the definition of a rifle or pistol. I can't keep up with all of the different state laws so check them yourself.

    Say a FFL sold you an AR rifle and you later trade/sell just the lower receiver back to the same FFL, he still must log it into his books in the configuration that he received it in. In the case of a lower by itself, it gets logged in as a receiver. It should not be logged in as a rifle or pistol since without an upper, it does not meet the legal definitions of either a rifle or pistol. Again, it doesn't matter if it has a stock, a brace, or bare buffer tube on it, a lower by itself is just a receiver.
     
  11. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    That's interesting. I thought that an AR rifle couldn't be built into a pistol. If a rifle lower (with the upper removed) is always transferred as other, that seems to indicate that a rifle lower can be built into a pistol.
     
  12. P Flados

    P Flados Member

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    Staying under max allowed length was a hurdle. I started with a 10", but dropped down to a 8.5" barrel to reduce overall length while allowing Ok (12.375") length of pull. Also note the thread protector instead of a typical muzzle device. The 10" shot better, but the 8.5" is Ok (both in 300 BO). The Red Dot does not weigh much and avoids any points for sights. I added a velcro strap to the blade brace to make the brace pass with no points.

    Compliant braced AR.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2022
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  13. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    A threaded muzzle device does not count towards over all length UNLESS it is permanently attached to the barrel. That is why you see most 14.5" barrels used on rifles come with the muzzle device pinned and welded to the barrel.
     
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  14. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2022
  15. kimberkid

    kimberkid Member

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    What about the states that don’t allow SBR’s?
     
  16. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Whether or not one lives in a state that allows SBRs, here are the options available if your braced pistol is deemed to be an SBR, either by failing the scoring sheet or by fiat of ATF:

    In order to comply with the provisions of the NFA, current unlicensed possessors of a firearm equipped with a “stabilizing brace” and a barrel length of less than 16 inches that would qualify as a “short-barreled rifle” as indicated on the ATF Worksheet 4999 contained in this proposed rule would need to take one of the following actions before the effective date of a final rule.


    (1) Permanently remove or alter the “stabilizing brace” such that it cannot be reattached, thus converting the firearm back to its original pistol configuration (as long as it was originally configured without a stock and as a pistol) and thereby removing it from regulation as a “firearm” under the NFA. Exercising this option would mean the pistol would no longer be “equipped with” the stabilizing brace within the meaning of the proposed rule.

    (2) Remove the short barrel and attach a 16-inch or longer barrel to the firearm thus removing it from the provisions of the NFA.

    (3) Destroy the firearm. ATF will publish information regarding proper destruction on its website, www.atf.gov.

    (4) Turn the firearm into your local ATF office.



    (5) Complete and submit an Application to Make and Register a Firearm, ATF Form 1 (“Form 1”). As part of the submission, the $200 tax payment is required with the application. Pursuant to 27 CFR 479.102, the name, city, and state of the maker of the firearm must be properly marked on the firearm. All other markings, placed by the original manufacturer, should be adopted. Proof of submission of the Form 1 should be maintained by all possessors. Documentation establishing submission of Form 1 includes, but is not limited to, eForm submission acknowledgement, proof of payment, or copy of Form 1 submission with postmark documentation.
     
  17. rust collector
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    rust collector Moderator Staff Member

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    I suspect that most pistol kits sold by PSA were initially built into a pistol before any brace was attached, as it would be difficult to index the brace until the tube was in place on the receiver. It should therefore be possible to not install the brace or remove the brace before the new rule is in effect, thereby preserving pistol status, no?
     
  18. Cayle

    Cayle Member

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    I'm just going to shoot my dog and get ahead of this...
     
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  19. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    If you go with option five, what do you do with the firearm until the tax stamp is approved?
     
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  20. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Maybe time for some Bump-Stock - Pistol-Brace humor mash up:

    upload_2022-7-21_13-2-2.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
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  21. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    Watch the first minute of this video to see it direct from the idiot's mouth. He actually says a pistol brace turns an AR into a machine gun. How bottom of the barrel are we scraping to elect someone like this to Congress?
     
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  22. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    Thank you for injecting the humor into a humorless situation. I needed it.
     
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  23. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    They don't say. Just more of the ambiguity and foolishness of this proposed regulation that is designed to do nothing than punish firearm owners who were following the rules as established earlier by ATF.

    I am guessing, but that is dangerous, that maintaining proof that you have submitted an application and sent a check for the tax will protect you: "Proof of submission of the Form 1 should be maintained by all possessors."
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
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  24. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    Pull the upper off?
     
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  25. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces#open-comment

    If you scroll way down and read under Section V, the ATF gives one option being to just remove the brace.
     
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