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ATF regs are not clear to me: Need some help on a possible purchase.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Gun Geezer, May 27, 2012.

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  1. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Member

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    Given the ATF info below, is it legal to buy a shotgun from a person from another state (no FFL involved) if that person drives to my state to sell it to me? It would seem that would be a purchse "within the person's own state" and thus legal for me.

    I don't want to take any chances.

    Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
    A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
     
  2. doc2rn

    doc2rn Member

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    I believe it is legal if the transfer happens at a liscenced FFL in your state.
     
  3. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Member

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    Doc2rn,

    I agree. But my question is only about if no FFL involved.

    The sale would occur in my state. So would that be legal without an FFL?
     
  4. rromeo

    rromeo Member

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    If you two are not residents of the same state, you need an FFL. It can be in your state or his state (long guns only), but it has to go through an FFL. Thanks LBJ.
     
  5. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    As has been pointed out, the issue is not where you and the seller happen to be standing, it's the residency of the buyer and the seller.

    Since the seller is coming to you anyway, do the transfer at a local FFL.
     
  6. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Member

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    Well, I don't like but that's about the conclusion I had come to.

    Thanks.
     
  7. 303tom

    303tom member

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    The poster would not be committing a felony...........

    Sales between individuals

    Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age or older, 21 for a handgun. An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a modern firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state. Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence. Likewise, antique firearms are exempt from these sections of the law in most states. (Antique firearms are defined as those manufactured pre-1899 by US federal law, or modern replicas thereof that do not use cartridges. State law definitions on antique firearms vary considerably from state to state.)
     
  8. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    303tom, in the hypothetical case the OP describes, the seller is not a resident of the same state as is the buyer.

     
  9. Scimmia

    Scimmia Member

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    At the very least, the seller would be. The law is a bit unclear about whether the buyer would be as well. I'm looking at the itself law, not some FAQ. 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) states that it is illegal:

    It could easily be argued that the firearm was obtained out of state if the seller is delivering it from such.
     
  10. forgottenson

    forgottenson Member

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    wouldn't it be legal if they lived in connecting states? For a long gun that is......
     
  11. Scimmia

    Scimmia Member

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    No. The whole "connecting states" thing is state law, not federal law. Under federal law, you can buy a long gun in person from an FFL while out of state. Some states restrict this so that it only applies to "connecting states".
     
  12. treg

    treg Member

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    Ya know, it might just be easier to repeal GCA68 than to live with it.

    Yes, we must follow the law, but we sure seem groomed to believe "that's just the way it is".
     
  13. forgottenson

    forgottenson Member

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    OK, I wasn't for sure on that with a ftf
     
  14. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    I believe FTF transfer of used guns between non-FFL licensees must be between residents of the same state.
     
  15. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    The real story on that is that prior to 1986 the Federal Gun Control Act (of 1968) only allowed rifle/shotgun sales by FFLs to residents of their own states; or IF state law allowed it, to residents of contiguous states. The Federal law, prior to 1986, required the state to have a specific law on the books that declared the sales of rifles/shotguns to residents of contiguous states to be lawful, and that still only applied to sales by FFLs.

    In 1986 the Federal Gun Control Act was amended to allow FFLs to sell rifles/shotguns to residents of any state, so long as the laws of both states (purchaser and FFL) were followed. There is no longer a requirement for contiguous states and no longer a requirement for specific state laws allowing the transactions. The only requirement is that there be no state laws that PROHIBIT the transactions.

    Many states have never repealed their laws that ALLOWED contiguous state transactions that were required prior to 1986. However, most of those state laws prohibit nothing because the prohibition was contained in Federal law which was repealed in 1986. Since those state laws prohibit nothing, and are no longer required by the Federal Gun Control Act, they are completely meaningless.
     
  16. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    is it lllegal to buy a shotgun from a person from another state, or is it only illegal to KNOWINGLY buy a shotgun from a person from another state?

    Are you required to ask?

    Even if you did ask how would you know if the seller was lying?
     
  17. Scimmia

    Scimmia Member

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    Great information, thank you! As my state doesn't have this law, I hadn't read into it in depth.

    For the seller atleast, it's "knows or has reasonable cause to believe". In this case, the seller is coming in from out of state, so that's pretty reasonable cause.
     
  18. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    If the potential seller does not tell you and you do not ask,
    then you would not 'know or have a reasonable cause to believe' that he was from out of state.
     
  19. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    There is no way to legally sell a gun to a resident of another state without transferring it through an FFL. And only rifles and shotguns may be sold by a dealer to a resident of another state. Never a handgun. That sale would require the gun be sent to an FFL in the buyer's home state for transfer.

    I'm sure the criminals find all these laws a big impediment.
     
  20. 303tom

    303tom member

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    My meaning exactly............
     
  21. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Is it worth the felony charges, loss of all gun rights and a stay at the graybar hotel with your bunk buddy for a FFL transfer fee?

    I would think not
     
  22. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    NOT "at a liscenced FFL" [sic] but trough an FFL's books

    He has to log it in from the seller, then do a 4473 to transfer it to the buyer, with all the required checks.

    Just like buying a brand new gun from the FFL.
     
  23. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Member

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    That's what I'm thinking.
     
  24. natman

    natman Member

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    Since the seller and purchaser are NOT from the same state, it's illegal.
     
  25. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    The part in bold is incorrect. Federal law is 18 years old for handguns for in-state private transfers, and 21 to get one from an FFL. Some states may set the age at 21.
     
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