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ATF shenanigans - Project Gunrunner

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by LegalAlien, Feb 1, 2011.

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  1. LegalAlien

    LegalAlien Member

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    Been following this on a few websites for the past couple of months and now it is picking up steam

    Senator Grassley is in contact with the ATF and DOJ and is requesting a hearing.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/media-begins-noticing-project-gunwalker

    There is mention of ATF indirectly being implicated in the death of border agent Bryan Terry.

    Many links to follow with archived blogs on how this has been building up. Some good reading.

    It is now also going viral with over 72k hits on Google.
     
  2. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

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    If this turns out to be true, I hope that nail them hard.
     
  3. LegalAlien

    LegalAlien Member

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    True? . . . . . have you read the letters from Grassley to Melson?

    Have you noticed that ATF insider whistleblowers have already been in contact with Grassley's office and they have already been provided with official whistleblower status protection.

    Just that, in my books, already gives it an extremely strong ring of truthfullness . . . .

    Just saying . . . :D
     
  4. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Member

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  5. Cap'n Jack Burntbeard

    Cap'n Jack Burntbeard Member

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    If this is true, it would not surprise me at all.
    The BATFE has never been a paragon of ethics.
     
  6. NJ Accountant

    NJ Accountant Member

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    Yeah I've been following this story and reluctance of the media to cover it. The associated press finally picked up the story and it is appearing on several news sites. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

    Here's for a thorough cleaning up of the atf!
     
  7. Tinman357

    Tinman357 Member

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    Cleaned???

    The BATFE desperately needs an enema... The only issue it where to stick the nozzle. :neener:
     
  8. essayons21

    essayons21 Member

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    ATF and DEA both need to have their budgets slashed and be rolled into the FBI. The continued misconduct results from superfluous agencies continually trying to justify themselves to Congressional budgetary hearings.
     
  9. JWF III

    JWF III Member

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    ATF should be rolled back into the "Treasury Department", as that's what they were originally. Let them deal with the tax issues (NFA items, maybe FFL liscenses, MAYBE) only. Let the FBI deal with criminal acts pertaining to guns.

    Wyman
     
  10. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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  11. papa_bear

    papa_bear Internet Reacon Marine

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    Wow. This is the first I have heard of this. If this is true, those responsible should tried for treason. Here is an easy to follow link if your not familiar with the story.... Story Time Line
     
  12. revjen45

    revjen45 Member

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    ATF resents being called Nazis. Not only are they Nazis, but they are the equivalent of the Dirlewanger Division - the dregs of the SS.
     
  13. Firehand

    Firehand Member

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  14. killchain

    killchain Member

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    Treason?

    Really?

    Treason is a seditious act to subvert the country for an enemy force.

    If they were running guns to the Taliban, maybe...
     
  15. Larry E

    Larry E Member

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    From my dealings with ATF when I had an FFL many years ago, and from my dealings with the FBI in connection with my job before I retired, I have close to zero use for either organization. They both seem to believe that they're superior to mere citizens, and do what they bloody well please unless someone yanks their leash every two steps.

    Like most other things that the federal government has its fingers in some or many (depending on agency maybe) of its employees don't seem to believe that the rules apply to them.
     
  16. papa_bear

    papa_bear Internet Reacon Marine

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    If this story is true than the people responsible for this would be an internal enemy force jeopardizing our constitution and 2nd amendment for money and or political reason. If this is not treason, then I don't know what is. However, until hard evidence comes to light it is here say.

    The Mexican president just came over here stating we should abolish the 2nd A and join the UN small arms treaty because the cartels were getting their weapons from us. Had to be about a year ago. And the whole time it was a false flag smuggling by our own government agency. Go figure. The DEA is accused of dealing drugs, CIA accused of sponsoring terror, now ATF smuggling weapons. Who are the bad guys?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2011
  17. killchain

    killchain Member

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    But not to a foreign power trying to defeat us in war.

    It's not treason.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_States

    "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
    The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

    Last time I checked, we're not at war with Mexico, and furthermore those drug cartels aren't an acting arm of the Mexican government. Technically.
     
  18. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    I fail to see WHY we have the ATF anyway. Seems to me the US already has the FBI to enforce laws, including those for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. Seems to me the FBI has a much better defined and monitored program for its officers. Also seems to me with a government needing ot find ways to save money they could just create a new division of the FBI to focus on ATF type things and reduce bureaucracy.

    These guys selling firearms to people deliberately across the border is worse enough. That they then used THOSE arrests and gun to try to justify a power grab is total BS. I mean the gun store owners cooperated with them. If anything, their argument should have been that the system worked as they were able to identify and take apart a network of straw buyers with the cooperation of RESPONSIBLE gun store owners.

    Now they go after their employees for whistleblowing. How much you want to bet any store that cooperates sees their FFL disappear.
     
  19. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

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    the ATF wasn't "Law Enforcement" until recently. before the move to DHS, they were tax collectors.
     
  20. NJ Accountant

    NJ Accountant Member

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  21. tyme

    tyme Member

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    The original "tax collection" mandate of the ATF was a scam -- a selective firearms ban under cover of tax collection.

    The government knew it couldn't forbid ownership or sales of firearms outright, so they resorted to a punitive tax.

    The only reason the "taxes" seem marginally tolerable now is that the tax fees haven't been adjusted for inflation.

    The BATF needs to go.
     
  22. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

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  23. JayBird

    JayBird Member

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    I kind of like how everyone that was cc'd or sent that letter was labeled in the 'Honorific" with the exception of the acting director of the ATF :neener:
     
  24. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Member

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    CCRKBA calls for Senate investigation of ATF controversy

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...s-for-senate-investigation-of-atf-controversy

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/4qd3fyq


    =============================================

    One Washington to the other: Crime stats tell the tale


    A spokeswoman for the Seattle Police Department said today that the city posted only 19 homicides in 2010, the lowest figure in recent memory, while Washington, D.C. – a city with a similar-sized population – logged 131 homicides, according to the Metropolitan Police Department’s website.


    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/one-washington-to-the-other-crime-stats-tell-the-tale

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/4oz6ufn
     
  25. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    You think that is going to solve things?


    That is how the ATF started.
    It goes back to the "Untouchables" and the Prohibition Bureau.
    Agents needed work after prohibition ended so they went from alcohol prohibition to enforcing strict alcohol laws.
    Then they had Tobacco added.
    In 1968 with the Gun Control Act they had firearms added.


    You can be sure many of the same agents in need of work would simply be applying and transferred to the new FBI division.


    It would remove the perceived bad guy, and the new bad guy would just be part of an even larger federal agency with a bigger budget that arguably could be even more of a nuisance to FFLs and others when they were made to prioritize such things as when an anti-gun President or Attorney General is in office.

    Currently it is a small agency with limited funding tasked with monitoring a large number of people. Which means they have to prioritize who they harass, the budget is too small to harass everyone.
    In a bigger agency the budget might be bigger for such tasks at various times like when the politics is right. They wouldn't have to give more money to the ATF through Congress, the FBI could just divert more of its budget at the whim of the president.
    A bigger agency gives a more fluid budget which would allow a large quantity of money to go towards anti-gun efforts at times. They can for example decide to devote X % of the FBI budget to such a task.
    Allowing a much larger number of people to be harassed.


    Right now it is one agency that can be the bad guy, have its funding well controlled, and its scope limited to what those in office wish.
    Yes the agency has far more discretion in interpretation that it should on many issues. It also does things wrong. But everyone knows who they are, part of their own agency, focusing primarily on certain elements of the law.

    It is the laws that need changing.
     
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