Aurora, CO Massacre

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by PocketRocket, Jul 20, 2012.

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  1. doc2rn

    doc2rn Member

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    The theaters in Aurora and Westminster both have the "thou shalt not carry signs" I wonder if anybody has a leg to stand on in a lawsuit since its by their actions disarming the populus.

    He bought a ticket, walked out the exit opening the door for his return, went to his car geared up and went back in. Seems to me like there was a missed opportunity to keep him out. Even my home tells me when someone opens a back door!

    The sad part is it will forever be a tragedy perpetuated on the innocent due to a gun free zone!
     
  2. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    Great; Bloomberg Seizes the Moment!

    Never let it be said that Michael Bloomberg wasted a crisis; Aurora Colorado a few hours old and he has called for both Obama and Romney to answer "what they would do about guns." See link:

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/20/bloomberg-demands-gun-action-from-obama-and-romney/

    I believe the danger here is that he may succeed in making gun control once again a central issue in the Presidential campaign. All it might take is for this kind of rhetoric to hang around for a week, and then, (surprise!) someone slips it in as a question during a Presidential Debate.

    So if it becomes an issue in the campaign, does it hurt or help concealed carry rights legislation?
     
  3. Diggers

    Diggers Member

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    Very sad day.

    The idea that someone with a ccw (chp) would have been able to stop this guy in this situation is really pretty much just a ridiculous fantasy. Having a gun doesn't make you a superhero.

    The shooter came prepared for resistance, dressed in a lot of kevlar, a helmet and gas mask. He planed an ambush on a full movie theater (150-200 people?) in such a way to create maximum confusion and disorientation by first tossing tear gas. This allowed him to shoot people at will. Most people in there probably didn't even really see the guy and just reacted to other people panicking and the sound of gun shots.

    Honestly consider how nearly impossible it would be to hit this guy in the face (the only target he gave) as he is moving and firing first a shotgun then an AR in a low light environment with tear gas and 150 to 200 panicked people running for their life.

    I've had a lot of training and I know I couldn't reliably make that shot.

    This doesn't even consider the issue if there was more than one ccw in there that started shooting...who is the bad guy now?

    rc is right, the only chance a ccw would have is to hunker down in the isle and pretty much play dead. If the shooter came down the isle, maybe an accurate shot could be taken.

    ccw's are not intended for this kind of thing, SWAT teams are. This guy would have been a handful even for them.
     
  4. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    There is no way to EVER at this point remove all forms of weaponry from the entire population for the purpose of making it "safe" everywhere. I want to be able to stand a fighting chance to survive an attack on myself/others. I therefore need the tools that are necessary to be able to do this. Banning any forms of weaponry does nothing but give those that are bent on causing one harm anyway a distinct advantage.

    My prayers go out to those that were not able to protect themselves from this senseless attack and their loved ones that have to deal with the results.
     
  5. Nico Testosteros

    Nico Testosteros Member

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    It won't become an issue in the campaign, is my estimation. If the question gets asked both candidates will talk without really saying anything. Not that those campaigning for lesser jobs wont make it an issue.
    And this call of Bloomberg's is totally predictable. His "cola grabbing" has cost him some credibility, I believe.
     
  6. mokin

    mokin Member

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    Kinda going out on a limb here, especially where politics meets gun rights, but I don't think the cancealed carry issue will be specifically targeted as an issue. Given Massachusetts' relatively high score by HCI (for example), I imagine that if such a question is posed, a politically "correct" and ambigious answer about "sensible gun laws" will be given by both candidates. I would also expect the issue to come to a head sometime after the election, also citing HCI's high score for Massachusetts.

    Cough! vote for your law makers! Cough!
     
  7. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    It wasn't many years ago that a man said "Lets Role" and although a tragedy happened a worse one was averted.
    Back in those days there was a lot of talk about how things like that would never again happen because we would collectively stop it.
    Since then we have had Virginia Tech and this to name just a few and so far no one has done a thing.
    Maybe Diggers is right and we all will just cower on the ground when our time comes to die because we are powerless to defend ourselves.
     
  8. pubthumper

    pubthumper Member

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    Reports I've read say that he was dressed in his "assault" gear went in and bought a ticket to the film, and actually went inside the theater. This was not seen as odd due to folks dressing up as heros and villans and so on at these events. While inside, he propped the emergency door open, unclear on why that went unnoticed. You know the rest. Also reported is that he had dyed his hair red and called himself the joker. Set tripwires all over his apt as well.
     
  9. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Well you just don't know that. In fact when he was confronted by an armed response he turned out to be a complete coward. Just like the crazy dude in Sweden. Crazy is crazy. That can mean a naked guy who won't stop even with fifteen rounds in him, or it can mean a guy in body armor who throws up hands a the first sign of a serious challenge. According to the reports I've read, he took to the stage where he certainly would have been a potential target. But the audience was almost entirely teens and youngsters who are about the last people to have CHL or training. Those of us who are more proficient, wealthy and likely to be armed are also more likely to be in bed snoring when this sort of thing happens.

    The only way you can know if you have an opportunity to use your weapon to fight back is if you're actually there actually getting shot at. So much depends on angle, location. light, line of sight, bystanders and innumerable other circumstances. The only thing we can say for sure is that it's better to have the option available than no option at all. Taking a handgun against an AR-15 is crazy, but trying to outrun 5.56 rounds in a packed theater is also crazy. There are no good choices in that kind of nightmare, but the only one with a chance of stopping it is fighting back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  10. dashootist

    dashootist Member

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    I'd completely avoid congregating in a enclosed room all together. There's not much reason to go to theater anyway, when most people have large screen TV at home. Suckers to pay $10 per person to watch a movie, then get ripped off at the concession stand. And noisy people. And filthy seats. And stuff like this happening.
     
  11. ezypikns

    ezypikns Member

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    This just about says it all.

    Still, I believe I'm going to try to begin carrying more often.
     
  12. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    If you have a CCW, based on the discussion here, it is highly unlikely you can use it to negate the threat of an armored assailant.

    However, on the off chance that you are running away, get stuck in a dead end corridor or the exit door is somehow chained, and you are able to hide (or you are already hiding under the table/seats), and the gunman is headed your way or in fact is standing in front of you with his back turned, it would be better if you had a pistol in your hand.
     
  13. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Actually it seems as though he was waiting to be caught. In the time it took for him to shoot and then get out, he could have driven away. Either that or he ran out of ammo.
     
  14. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    A Little Can Do A Lot

    An acquaintance of mine named Charl van Wyk put an end to a situation using a snub nosed 38 Special. The attackers had grenades and AK's, and beat feet as soon as Charl shot back. That's not to say that this shooter would have beat feet too, but you never know until you try. At least shooting back is likely to spoil the shooters day.

    Woody
     
  15. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Gas masks are somewhat annoying to wear. Reduce peripheral vision and awareness.
    The shooter would have had both emotional and physical tunnel vision. Those he was not directly facing would have been hard to even see. Especially in the smoke he created.
    Target acquisition was likely difficult and he was just shooting at what he could.

    One thing benefiting individuals in such a situation is everyone knows who the person clearly opening fire on people is, while the shooter does not know who may be a threat to them.
    In an open room with over 100 people it is very likely an armed person would have time to line up sights and take some good shots before the shooter even knew where it was coming from.
    When nobody else is armed or tries to shoot him that disadvantage means nothing, but if you got some armed people that will react then it means the shooter has a disadvantage. People know to shoot him, but he doesn't know who the threat to him is and must react after he is already shot at.


    Now that does not mean it would be easy to stop them, but even setup the way he was it does mean someone has a decent chance.
    The biggest challenge is deciding to do something while it still matters, and then making choices that result in something.
    After the fact everyone can try to figure out the best course of action, but even a few minutes of thought figuring it out is a lot longer than someone who must act quickly or have no real impact on the outcome has to figure it out in the moment.
     
  16. CABob

    CABob Member

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    Spent the day watching TV (recovering from surgery) and I can tell you CNN and virtually all the antis are in full throated roar. See mayor Blumberg's comments made within a couple hours of the shooting.

    Those that do not believe this will result in massive push against the 2nd Amendment are dreaming. I feel terrible for the families of those injured or killed and will be praying for them, but I also live in Ca. I've seen how it goes. This is a very bad day for responsible gun owners.

    I'm joining the NRA today, and buying the rifle I had been planning on now, while I still can.

    Idiots will always be around. Some of them will have guns. I don't know how to change that. Neither do the antis, they just push their agenda. But the more this stuff happens, the more committed to protecting myself and my family I get.
     
  17. splattergun

    splattergun Member

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    internet. equal opportunity teacher.
     
  18. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Given the ratio of injured to dead I'd bet he didn't have much training. It could have been (and has in other cases) been a much worse ratio.
     
  19. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    He wasn't, he got his ticket, prop an exit open and then went to his car and got dressed and went to the door and begin his assault.

    Oh man I had to deal with the idiots on Facebook, that said I'm an idiot for wasting my time. It does confirm and beyond any suspicions or qualms about it being pro side said (we can sometimes be an echo chamber) that anti gun people by and large now very little about guns and the laws around them, some moderates know an okay amount from hunting as a child or parents, but most Antis know squat, I mean laws, handling, and purchasing...god forbid they ever learn about reloading and black powder guns. That said the moderete anti seemed more annoyed with the NRA wanting to make access to guns easier, however, I think explaining the process (at least in PA) and that there is no gun show loophole (with facts) helped by explains it's for law abiding citizens. Granted the fact there was no straw, all due dillegenc done, no prohibited nature is going to make this harder...but looking at this guys setup he would have just chucked around nail bombs if he had no guns.
     
  20. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    In this case facing an armored attacker in a dark and noisy theater who is firing an AR or shotgun you'd find yourself looking to escape the room or escape notice or returning fire and not knowing whether you were making hits or not because COM hits would be on armor.

    All the bombastic bluster in the world doesn't mean a thing until you find yourself in the situation.

    Monday Morning Quarterbacking these situations with unflappable conviction is embarrassing.
     
  21. Kendahl

    Kendahl Member

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    "Taking a handgun against an AR-15 is crazy..." Not necessarily. Not quite 20 years ago, an air force cop used his 9 mm Beretta to take down another mental case who was using an AK with a drum magazine to kill as many people as he could. The cop fired four times hitting the shooter once in the shoulder, which had no effect, and once in the head, which killied him. The distance between them was 70 yards which would favor the rifle over the pistol.

    In my opinion, the biggest challenge to firing back at the Aurora shooter would have been finding a clear shot through the mob scrambling to escape. I was going to say it was his body armor but, since he meekly surrendered to police, I wonder if the impacts of bullets hitting his armor would have been enough to drive him off.
     
  22. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Was that guy wearing body armor? That does make a difference.
     
  23. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    Bullet proof vest, throat guard, groin guard, and tactical gloves if I recall the chiefs interview.
     
  24. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    And probably killed & injured more people with a couple lawn mower gas cans and a BIC lighter.

    rc
     
  25. flyskater

    flyskater Member

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    Even if there were off duty cops and ccw'ers at the theater, that's a very difficult situation when someone with full body, leg, and helmet armor. Just reminds me of the North Hollywood shootout where 300 cops vs 2 Ak-47 wielding criminals with full body armor.
    Granted I usually have my 5.7 or tokarev with me that can penetrate armor.

    2nd You have a stampede of people trying to get out to lobby of the theater while you are trying to get to the front and have a clear shot at him in the dark.
     
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