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Australia's ahead of the U.S.,,,,

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by fallingblock, Mar 10, 2004.

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  1. fallingblock

    fallingblock Member

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    The N.S.W. Police seem to have a very 'enlightened' view of gunowners:


    ************************************************************
    ABC ONLINE:

    It has been claimed western NSW police officers are being forced to put
    off their ordinary duties in order to complete a firearms audit.

    A spokesman for the New South Wales Police Association, Mick Hilder,
    says the audit is a lengthy process in the western district because most
    landholders own several guns

    Mr Hilder says it is a dangerous situation, given that officers on
    restricted duties usually have some sort of injury and do not carry
    handcuffs or weapons.

    "So they're going to a place, who's known [where]...to do an inspection
    of the way these firearms are kept and secured so that they have to
    contact the owner first before they turn up, so if the owner has a grudge or a bad day they may well have the opportunity to attack some of our police," he said.
    ************************************************************
    :fire:

    These rural firearms owners are in the main managers or owners of vast cattle or sheep properties. They have complied with the registration and licensing procedures required and now are being "audited" for storage facilities.

    The NSW Police obviously hold the firearms owners in contempt, or are simply paranoid due to ignorance and misinformation.
     
  2. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    Not so much ''the police'' per se I'd think, but more the ''powers that be''.

    And yeah ... probably much paranoia and ignorance thrown in too.

    As ever, such a pity that there seems such a problem, differentiating between legal and law-abiding ..... and criminal.

    Keep up enough of the harrassment and stigmatizing ... and even the legal owners will feel or be made to be criminal ... maybe then there can be some ''trouble'' expected ... but who's fault would that be? Not the legal guys for sure.

    Continue with paranoia and ''criminalizing'' the legitimate people ..... and you have a recipe for problems ...... self inflicted.
     
  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes but they're far behind the Workers' Paradise in Communist China. Despite gun control, some "peasants" still have black powder shotguns. They don't have percussion caps but they figured out how to get around that. Where there's a will, there's a way.
     
  4. threeseven

    threeseven Member

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    Other than the utterly ridiculous insinuation that people might attack police doing audits, I see no problem with this article or the procedures undertaken to ensure proper storage.

    If you make storage laws, which for the most part are relatively sensible, you must be able to enforce them. These 'audits' as you put it are organised by the police with the firearm owner by phone, a suitable time is agreed upon, and the police meet with the owner at their house/storage facility.

    The police check the storage is up to scratch and the firearm owner gets a certificate to say so.

    What in the world is wrong with sensible storage laws? Some - not all, but some - people who own guns just aren't willing to make the extra effort and secure their weapons properly, and stolen legal firearms will do no end of bad to our cause.
     
  5. Night Guy

    Night Guy Member

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    What good is a gun in the safe, when there's a knife at your throat?
     
  6. threeseven

    threeseven Member

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    Night Guy said:
    Let's not argue that here. Carry and self-defence laws are literally non-existent in this country, unfortunately. This discussion is about secure storage of firearms. It doesn't matter where you keep your guns in Australia because you are simply not allowed to use them against another human for any reason whatsoever, so they may aswell be in a safe.
     
  7. Stand_Watie

    Stand_Watie Member

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    How about that fact that enforcing safe storage laws diverts police resources from real crime? Meanwhile, criminals will continue to do what they do with or without access to firearms. It isn't 'stolen legal firearms' that harm "our" cause, it's the faulty logic of the gun grabbers blaming the bad behavior of humans on inanimate objects.
     
  8. threeseven

    threeseven Member

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    If you honestly think it's not worth securing a firearm properly, you're utterly deluded.

    I like guns, okay? I like being able to own guns, and I think other responsible citizens should be allowed to own guns, too. Despite this, no shade of rosy coloured glasses will hide the fact that a firearm is still a deadly weapon and thus shouldn't be left sitting in a ute tray or in a cupboard somewhere.

    A simple 15 minute interview with police to satisfy what are quite reasonable storage requirements is not a big deal at all, and society is unlikely to lapse into chaos from stretched police resources as a result of it. Can you imagine what would happen if some bastard managed to steal a registered, legal weapon from an owner who thought it wasn't worth locking up? What if he used it to kill a child, or a policeman, or a bank teller? It would set into motion a chain of events that would likely result in firearm ownership reforms and more liberties taken away. So I'm willing to put up with a little storage inspection every once and awhile, if that's what it takes to lessen the chance of something wayward happening and restricting my rights.

    If people aren't responsible enough to take care of their own storage requirements (and let's face it, a lot of Australians would leave their rifles wherever was convenient if they were allowed) then someone has to MAKE THEM secure their weapons. The storage laws are protecting us from ourselves (to be more accurate, a certain section of ourselves).

    You seem to believe that guns can do no harm. I will admit, on their own they certainly can't. However, a firearm of any description is a formiddable weapon and one that have every precaution taken to keep it away from people who might seek to destroy life and liberty with it.
     
  9. Stand_Watie

    Stand_Watie Member

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    I don't. I believe it's not worth dedicating police resources to.

    Gunowners like you are the reason you will soon not be able to own any firearms at all in Australia.

    Guess what? You're going to lose them anyway. Your only option is to move away from Australia. It's the idiots who blame the gun who are to blame for the gun rights being lost.


    Meanwhile, criminals will continue to kill others with or without firearms, and you're wasting time, police resources and money on law abiding citizens.
     
  10. threeseven

    threeseven Member

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    Stand_Watie said:
    I'd love it if you could elaborate on this for me.

    EDIT: Scratch that, I am not going to argue with an American about the validity of an Australian law. Our cultural differences mean we will see totally different ways on this, there's no reason for us to argue about it. Mind you, I still take offence to your comment.

    EDIT 2: I will clarify my position on this matter. I feel that Australians are hard done by with regards to firearms legislation. I feel that there is nothing dangerous about a responsible, legal firearm owner. I feel that there is nothing short of a miracle that will reverse the state our country is in with regards to firearms legislation. I also feel that whining about something as inane as storage checks is the real waste of time and effort here.
     
  11. Stand_Watie

    Stand_Watie Member

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    It's going to get worse.


    It's certainly a waste of time in regards to influencing Australian law - but it's quite worth pointing out to Americans who might be tempted to support "sensible" (not to mention expensive and worthless) gun laws in order to "protect" themselves from future attacks on their gun rights just exactly what happens to gun rights in societies where the gunnies lay back and let themselves be raped by the anti-gun nuts.

    Your gun storage laws don't protect society from criminals, they simply impose a greater burden on gunowners and the law enforcement system.
     
  12. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    So, when the dingo's got your baby by the throat, do you have time to go open the safe, open the seperate ammo locker, etc, in time?

    It is time for some change in the "powers that be" down under, me thinks.
     
  13. tcsd1236

    tcsd1236 Member

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    "Mr Hilder says it is a dangerous situation, given that officers on
    restricted duties usually have some sort of injury and do not carry
    handcuffs or weapons.

    "So they're going to a place, who's known [where]...to do an inspection
    of the way these firearms are kept and secured so that they have to
    contact the owner first before they turn up, so if the owner has a grudge or a bad day they may well have the opportunity to attack some of our police," he said."

    The REAL issue here that posters thus far have not commented on is that they are considering this detail officers are sent out on as some sort of light duty appropriate for officers on the injured list who cannot yet return to full duty and thus are not armed. I don't know any agency in my area that would send light duty officers out of the office, let alone on what the agency down there admits ahs a degree of potential harm. If it were in the USA and something happened to that officer, based on the news reports alone the officer would own the agency in Court.I am returning to work on Monday after surgery on a light duty status, and I wont even be allowed out of the office til my doctor clears me for full duty.
    They are using the fact that they are being idiots in their personnel management practices as an excuse to be stupid about gun owners.
     
  14. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    I know! Why not make it illegal to steal firearms, and vigorously prosecute those who do so? ;)

    (Why pass more laws that only serve to use up police resources monitoring people who are so squeaky clean that they are allowed to own guns under Australia's positively draconian firearms laws? That ain't where you're gonna find the bad guys, ossifer. :scrutiny: )
     
  15. HankB

    HankB Member

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    I thought this was happening down under anyway?
    And soon someone will MAKE THEM surrender the rest of them anyway.
     
  16. Chip Dixon

    Chip Dixon Member

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    threeseven,

    I'm curious about Australian Law. Are you required to keep your firearms secured at all times? Or do you only need to have a place to keep them secured that you can show them at an audit, and to use when you're not at your residence?

    IOW, is it legal to leave firearms around the house, unsecured, while you're home?
     
  17. threeseven

    threeseven Member

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    I feel as though I'm being beaten up on a little in this thread. This audit/storage check stuff isn't new, it's always been this way. No new law has been passed whatsoever. I'm not going to argue with anyone else, I don't feel like dealing with all this hostility :( You're all looking at this from an American viewpoint. I personally don't feel that a fifteen minute check every 3 or 4 years is 'draconian'. Many of our gunlaws border on retarded, but I don't think the all the drama is required with regards to this particular one.

    To answer your question Chip, no we aren't allowed to leave weapons unsecured around the place when not in use. You can have them out while cleaning them, working on them, fondling them (er) etc., but you couldn't go upstairs and go to sleep or read or book or something and leave a rifle downstairs on a chair or your safe open. They are meant to be secured when not in use or transit to use.
     
  18. Stand_Watie

    Stand_Watie Member

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    What's to keep the bad guys fom putting a knife (meat cleaver, hay fork, etc) to your throat and demanding you open your safe and surrender them? Perhaps a safe in your home isn't safe enough? I predict the next requirement will be that they not be allowed to be kept in the home whatsoever....and doubtless there will be some of the few remaining gunowners in Australia who will go along with that and defend the "sensibleness" of it.:scrutiny:

    edit p.s. I'm sorry you feel beat up upon, and apologize for my contribution perhaps being unneccessarily snide. I'll try to be less caustic. I think you'll find however that defending gun laws as "sensible" strikes a nerve with American pro-gun rights types.
     
  19. dischord

    dischord Member

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    Opposition to storage laws does not mean opposition to safe storage. :)
    Draconian? Maybe not. But it is especially odious for the government to demand periodic access to your property so that it can look for violations of the law. This flies in the face of both the ideals that you shouldn't be subject to a search (inspection) without probable cause and that you shouldn't have to prove that you are obeying the law.

    These ideals are not uniquely American. They come out of the Anglo legal tradition, from which Australian law also derives.

    It's not really a gun rights issue. It's a property rights and criminal defendant rights issue. We'd have the same reaction if guns were not involved in the inspections.
     
  20. threeseven

    threeseven Member

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    Mate, I'm as pro-gun as they come.

    But I have to live with these laws, short of a full-scale uprising, my options for dealing with the situation is severely limited. In short, to rationalisation.

    I think it would be fantastic if every single person was responsible enough to secure their own firearms and no police intervention was required. I happen to have a safe in my garage that weighs more than 600kg and led a past life as a bank safe. Some people AREN'T responsible, and these silly audits are an admittedly knee-jerk response to that.
     
  21. dischord

    dischord Member

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    I think it would be fantastic if all parents kept their poisonous cleaning supplies locked up. I think it would be fantastic if all home owners kept fire extinguishers next to their stoves.

    Hey, speaking of home fires, more Australians die in home fires than by gun. Does the government come in periodically to inspect your smoke detectors? After all, it would save more lives than the gun storage laws.
     
  22. PigPen

    PigPen Member

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    Which is precisely the purpose for which they were intended. Therefore, if the law in Australia is followed, why have them at all............right?


    PigPen
     
  23. Kinsman

    Kinsman Member

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    I lock up my guns....

    Whenever I leave the house.
    Other than that, I have 'em close to hand.

    If somebody were to steal 'em and commit a crime with 'em....well, crime is already against the law, right?

    Besides, 'relatively sensible' infringements upon Liberty? Relative....to what?
     
  24. Chip Dixon

    Chip Dixon Member

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    threeseven, thanks for enlightening me. I feel sorry for you, being stripped of such basic rights. It sounds like you're still a few steps away from auschwitztralia, though. So you still have time to bury your guns and ammo somewhere secret in the outback.
     
  25. RobW

    RobW Member

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    Shows clearly, that Government distrusts their "citizens" (slaves would be a better word) deeply. EVERY GOVERNMENT, no matter weather "Democracy" or Tyranny.

    Gov is clearly NOT interested in persecute criminals or protect our chiiiiildren, they are solely and only interested in disarming the populace.

    The only thing the Government fears are independent and armed citizens. They prefer sheep/slaves.
     
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