Aut-O-Cap

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Darth-Vang, Mar 20, 2021.

  1. Darth-Vang

    Darth-Vang Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2019
    Messages:
    190
    Yeah got that copper sheets straight from hobby lobby too. Very well formed copper cups. Can’t wait to test it out. And see how it performs.
     
  2. Black Jack Shellac

    Black Jack Shellac Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2019
    Messages:
    79
    I have to admit that the copper sheet the kid talks about does work very well. When I have used them on my 58 Remi,they tend to flatten out to a disk again.No fragments.The copper also makes for pretty caps too..Muct of my shooting is with side lock rifles. I don't have to worry about fragments from the cups. A double layer pop can cup is fine here. I do like tinkering with stuff. It appears that I have figured to cost of the production using copper was high. Even paying full price and taxes added on the cost per cup would be only slightly more than $.01 . Sure would like to see it cost less.
    Black Jack Shellac
     
    robhof and hrt4me like this.
  3. ThomasT

    ThomasT Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    5,074
    Location:
    Burleson,Texas
    Outlawkid have you tried any of the aluminum flashing sold at Home Depot or Lowes? It would be thicker than coke cans and should be way cheaper than copper sheeting would think. When I was doing my home repair business I used a lot of the aluminum flashing but don't have even a tiny piece left to measure the thickness.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gibraltar-Building-Products-6-in-x-10-ft-Aluminum-Roll-Valley-Flashing-999-10-6/306247117#product-overview

    It shows in the specifications to be .010 thick. So twice the thickness of the copper you are using.
     
  4. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    1,466
    I tried aluminum flashing that was only .007 and even that was too stiff and wouldn't make "tightly" shaped caps. Im not sure why its so much stiffer than regular aluminum...perhaps they add some other metal to make it more of an alloy? All i can tell you is that it didnt work.. I used two different brands hoping the issue was brand related and it was just way too hard of an aluminum (or alloy) . Even with a hammer on the cap maker it still wouldnt make completely formed tight caps. Perhaps a drill/arbor mounted press may work better due to being able to use a whole lot more even downward force?
     
    ThomasT likes this.
  5. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,160
    Doubt that would work, I would imagine the aluminum in question is a copper aluminum alloy such as 2024, it would need to be what is referred to as dead soft to for caps to be formed, most likely trying to force one out of 2024 would end up cracking the metal before it's completely formed.
     
    ThomasT and robhof like this.
  6. milsurpguy

    milsurpguy member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    551
    Almost all your hobby aluminum should be 6061 unless it's melted down beer cans from china.
    2024 would likely be for an air craft application.
     
  7. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    1,466
    Are beer cans from china different?
     
    gobsauce likes this.
  8. milsurpguy

    milsurpguy member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    551
    Beer cans should be 3000 series aluminum.
     
  9. vagunmonkey

    vagunmonkey Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Virginia
    I too purchased one at Disneyland in the early seventies...it was a single shot pirate pistol that fired little wooden balls (about 50 caliber) that came with it...it would also shoot marbles through screen doors and windows (dont ask). But then again this was the time we could also shoot sharpened pencils out of dart guns...
     
    ThomasT, robhof and hrt4me like this.
  10. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    17,826
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    This was also in the mid 70s, and this one was a cap rifle faked up like a musket. I noticed there were two holes drilled in the thin steel barrel right in front of the lockwork, so, being young, stupid, and having access to firework powder, (I NEVER ever said I was smart), I put a small charge of firework powder down the bore, and a whole wad of caps on the lockwork...and it ignited the powder charge, which shot HUGE sparks up the twin holes. So, if I had blocked those holes and ignored every rule of safety, I could have actually ignited a charge in the barrel from a cap on the lockwork....FORTUNATELY, I had an attack of common sense. I still have this thing somewhere in the house, too.
     
    robhof, hrt4me and vagunmonkey like this.
  11. ofitg

    ofitg Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Messages:
    444
    Your "cross +" punch idea reminded me of something I read years ago on the Castboolits forum. See post #86 by a fellow named "Wicket" -

    cap making dies - Page 5 (gunloads.com)
     
  12. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    17,826
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    GREAT website there, learned a lot.
     
  13. ofitg

    ofitg Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Messages:
    444
    A fellow named Tony Calp has modified his old Tap-O-Cap to operate with a reloading press -

    tony calp - YouTube

    He doesn't provide details, but he also "enlarged" the Tap-O-Cap's innards to turn out musket caps -

    Making Musket Caps - YouTube
     
    Dave Markowitz and arcticap like this.
  14. Black Jack Shellac

    Black Jack Shellac Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2019
    Messages:
    79
    You are right. Short on details. Did he mod a old forrester die or the new 22reloader cap maker. My Auto-Cap made 45 years ago is so friggen hard you could not cut any threads into that. Good thing it came that way. Now I think the newer 22 reloader cap maker could be threaded. I now have one of them to maybe do just that.
    Black Jack Shellac
     
  15. Just4FunOldGuns

    Just4FunOldGuns Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    53
    So how full do the caps have to be for reliable ignition? While waiting for my 36 gauge copper to arrive, I decided to experiment with what I had on hand. Aluminum ducting tape on heavy paper, about the thickness of a file folder. Figured the powder might soak down into the paper somewhat after adding the denatured alcohol. I am also going to test aluminized Christmas wrap.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Black Jack Shellac

    Black Jack Shellac Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2019
    Messages:
    79
    When I was still mixing dry powders .I made a scoop from one of the red cups that come with the toy ring caps. I finally arrived at the cup being cut down to half size. Glued that to a wooden matchstick. works fine. When the dry powder was pressed down into the cup. It was only about as thick as cardboard. As a last step a binder is needed. Some use a drop of Duco cement mixed in a tablespoon of acetone.Many use some light coats of hairspray. Lately I have been using a drop of Elmers glue in a teaspoon of water .Shake that up in a little bottle and dipstick used to get that into the cups. I have used all of these binders and if not made too thick they work fine,even the Elmers.
    Black Jack Shellac
     
    robhof likes this.
  17. Just4FunOldGuns

    Just4FunOldGuns Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    53
    I see now why you use glue, placed the 6 in a small container today and drove out to test them. All the primer material came out of the caps by the time I arrived! Next time a binder!
    I use a glass eye dropper with the bulb removed. Stick it in the powder, place my finger over the other end and hold it over the cap and then tap with that finger and I can dispense the powder. I can then see how much I need for each cap. Sometimes I can fill 2 with 1 dip.
    I also at Dollar Tree purchase 4 for a buck the small glass vials to hold the powders instead of the bags.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Just4FunOldGuns

    Just4FunOldGuns Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    53
    As soon as my part comes, I'm going the other route to install this on my Lee Breech Lock Challenger. I ordered an extra Breech Lock Quick Change bushing, and I plan on honing it out to the necessary .980 or so to mount the cap maker in. If necessary, I will tack weld it in after figuring out the best position. Then I will weld an old shell holder to the bottom, hole end of the cap maker. Should be able to churn them out in record time.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. milsurpguy

    milsurpguy member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    551
    I would start with a small primer scoop worth of primer material.
    That should get you around 0.3 grains, that's plenty for black powder.
     
  20. Black Jack Shellac

    Black Jack Shellac Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2019
    Messages:
    79
    Hi Milsurpguy Some do use a primer cup,usually cut down though. I will not help if the charge gets beyond a certain level. The cup its in explodes and fragments giving almost no increase in actual ignition power. .This I have observed on my cap tester.
    Old guns I think you have a really good idea. I would stay away from welding though. You could ruin the temper in the die. JB weld the die to the insert once you have it placed. . For the punch Soldering a drilled out rifle case base to the punch could work .The bigger to case the better. Best if you could use a steel case. Minimal risk I do most of my cap punching on a now old lee challenger press. My ram came drilled with a extra drilled hole 1" above the normal one. When I move the linkage to that location the ram gets to max leverage a inch lower . This is ideal for punching out caps. Everything is finger tip pressure from then on.
    It looks like you could do this too if you drill the extra hole.
    Black Jack Shellac
     
    robhof likes this.
  21. milsurpguy

    milsurpguy member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    551
    Yeah I tested "black powder 209 primers" versus "regular winchester 209 primers" back in the day when 209 primers for muzzel loaders was becoming common.
    The full power 209 primers made for inconsistent shots. The full power 209 primers seemed significantly more powerful than the muzzel loader 209 primers.
    Now that I have gotten into reloading primers I know that typically 209 primers have around 1.2 grains of primer material in them and large have a half grain and small have about a third grain.
    I would have to say the muzzel loader 209 primers have about a small primer worth of material in them.
     
  22. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,672
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    NAML posted test results comparing some 209 primers and they all seem to have different strengths.--->>> http://www.namlhunt.com/mlprimers.html
     
  23. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    8,288
    Location:
    Plymouth Meeting, PA
    FWIW...

    I tested some homemade caps last weekend. The cups were punched from 36 gauge copper foil. Charge was Scheutzen 3Fg black powder, measured with a scoop made from a large pistol primer, topped with 2 dots from a roll of paper caps.

    I shot them in my Euroarms Rogers & Spencer. They ignited 20 grains of 3Fg Triple 7 fine. I then tried another cylinder this time loaded with paper cartridges with 20 grains of T7. I had one misfire in the second cylinder. When I recapped and fired that chamber it was a hangfire, so I think the nipple may have been a bit clogged.

    One thing I noticed was the difference in how much the cups flowed back between the first and second cylinders. The first cylinder was loaded with 20 grains T7, a lubed wad, and a .454 ball. In the second cylinder I used paper cartridges with 0.5cc of cornmeal instead of the wad. These apparently generate higher pressure, based on more deformation of the caps.

    The spent caps:

    spent-homemade-caps.jpg

    The R&S has the factory nipples which have pretty large flash holes. I've never had anything resembling a cap jam with the gun before, but the second cylinder required more effort to cock due to the cap deformation flowing back into the frame.
     
    robhof, arcticap and Darth-Vang like this.
  24. Midniterider58

    Midniterider58 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2021
    Messages:
    2
    Question. I've looked up the tap o cap that 22reloader sells,and also the primer mix. Whats y'alls thoughts on the primer mix? If it has been discussed on here before I apologize ahead of time. New to this forum and the bp pistol game. Have hunted with inline muzzleloaders for years and decided to dip my toes in the pistol waters.
     
  25. Black Jack Shellac

    Black Jack Shellac Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2019
    Messages:
    79
    Dave Either nipples with smaller holes or thicker or harder caps should stop the problems.where did you get the copper?
    Midniterider The prime all is powerful and more than does the job. There is a problem with it crumbling and falling out. That is easily fixed with one of several binders anyone can use. There has been lots of info about this here lately. You can easily find it.
    Black Jack Shellac
     
    robhof likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice