Autoloaders help me out

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horsey300

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So I am a revolver/rifle loader about to get set up on .45acp, 9mm, and .380 I'm familiar with loading fl vs neck sizing in rifles and have witnessed debates over .357 sig, but I just read something interesting on the general interwebs and I'd rather hear from my more trusted thr crowd (who have rarely yet steered me wrong on anything of true value)....... Autoloaders headspace on case mouth (I understand so far) so resize rarely, and taper crimp (taper I understand) I'm stuck on the resizing part though, in revolvers, I resize, trim (if needed), flare, powder, seat, crimp. Lee 4hole at the moment, progressive later maybe, do autoloaders really do better with less frequent sizing?
Edited to defeat the almighty autocorrect!
 
I also use 4 hole classic. Yes. 380, 9mm, and many others do head space on the mouth of the case.. A lot depends on where your brass comes from, but to give short answers:
1. Resize, yes. Especially on 9mm as they are prone to bulging near the base. Also, bullet will likely not seat properly if neck tension is not restored. This applies to virgin brass also.
2. Trim length, rarely, straight wall brass usually shortens with age and repeated firings. But you should check the length to be sure.
3. Flaring is usually done with the powder thru expander die when you drop the powder.
Only needs to be enough for you to insert the bullet for seating.
4. You can crimp separately if you want, I've never needed to on 9mn or the others you mention. The seating die usually does all the crimp I need, mine does happen to be a taper crimp. You can do a light roll crimp, but a heavy crimp in either a roll or taper die will cause you more problems in these cartridges.
Definitely plunk test your rounds or get a case gage, especially 9mm and 380.
 
Handgun cases need to be full length sized. For example, you will not find 357 Magnum neck sizing dies.

The case mouth gets flared a bit to assist with seating the bullet. This occurs when the case mouth is expanded for the bullet. The crimp removes the flare.

Generally, cartridges for semi-auto guns use a taper crimp. The taper crimp removes the flare but still allows the case to headspace on the case mouth.

Revolver cases usually get a roll crimp. The roll crimp helps with a number of factors. It helps eliminate bullet creep under recoil and it aids with powder ignition when firing.

Just to make things confusing, my low power 38 Special loads, such as 38 Special target wadcutters, with plated bullets are taper crimped. You do not need a heavy crimp to prevent bullet set back nor for improved ignition. A heavy roll crimp with plated bullets can cause separation problems with then plating.

Cast and frequently jacketed bullets for revolvers will have a crimping groove or cannelure for the roll crimp.

Bullets for semi-auto ammunition frequently do not have a crimping groove or cannelure. A taper crimp does not need one.

Most handgun cartridge seating dies will also do the crimp. But, crimping only dies are available. I prefer to crimp in a separate step from seating. In somewhat it is a personnel preference but just be aware of the option.

I hope this helps.
 
The information continues...

While rifle reloading is done with a two die set for the most part, handgun cartridge reloading is done with a three die set. Handgun cartridges are not long enough to be able to size the case and then resize the case neck in the same operation. If you are reloading revolver cases, you should be familiar with that.

Autoloaders headspace on case mouth (I understand so far) so resize rarely, and taper crimp (taper I understand)

Cartridges for semi-auto guns definitely need to be resized. The resizing die in a die set will take care of that. Like revoolvers, the case mouth is expanded with the mouth expanding die and a bit of a flare is added to the case mouth to make seating the bullet easier.

I'm stuck on the resizing part though, in revolvers, I resize, trim (if needed), flare, powder, seat, crimp. Lee 4hole at the moment, progressive later maybe, do autoloaders really do better with less frequent sizing?
Edited to defeat the almighty autocorrect!

Cases for semi-auto guns will be resized every time they are reloaded. It is a necessary step and cannot be skipped.

But, unlike revolver cases, for bullet seating, the taper crimp is more forgiving and the need to trim the case is near zero. Most folks I know never trim cases for semi-auto handguns, including me.

For revolver cases getting a roll crimp, uniform case length length is necessary for a uniform roll crimp. If the revolver case length is not uniform, things can get real nasty. You can get some cartridges that are over crimped and will not chamber in your gun.

Otherwise, reloading ammunition for semi-auto guns (45 ACP, 9x19, 380 ACP, etc) is not alot different than for revolver cartridges (357 magnum, 38 Special, 44 Magnum, etc.)

To throw a wrinkle in all this, for 357 Sig, some folks will use a 40 S&W sizing die to resize the body of the case and then run the case through a 357 Sig die to resize the neck. This can have benefits for loading 375 Sig on a progressive. But, the case will still go through an expander die that expands and flares the case mouth and then, after the primer is seated and the powder charge dropped, the bullet is seated and taper crimped.

I reload 357 Sig and another bottle neck handgun cartridge, 38/45 Clerke (45 ACP case necked down to 38 caliber). I run the cases through resizing die, then the case mouth expanding die. I then tumble the cases to clean off the resizing lubricant and shine up the cases. The cases are stored away for a future reloading session where I prime the cases, charge the case, seat the bullet and crimp the bullet.

Most of the manuals from the bullet manufacturers as well as Lyman manuals and the "ABC's of Reloading" books have good information on reloading handgun cartridges.
 
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The process is essentially identical other than no trimming and easy on the taper crimp. It's more just removing the flare
Yep, what AJC said. light crimps. After I get the COL that I like, I put on what seems a reasonable yet light crimp, check the COL again and then take the round and with 2 fingers and 2 thumbs grasp it tightly on the brass and try to push the projectile in on the side of my work bench, if it doesn't move and it fits well in a case gauge then it's good to go.
 
.... I'm stuck on the resizing part though, in revolvers, I resize, trim (if needed), flare, powder, seat, crimp. Lee 4hole at the moment, progressive later maybe, do autoloaders really do better with less frequent sizing?
I have never heard autoloader ammo does better with less frequent sizing. You have to resize the brass every time to insure proper neck tension because that's what holds the bullet in place, not the crimp. In reality it should not be called crimping because all you are really doing is removing the bell placed there to help seat the bullet.

I'm curious, where did you hear that? (and don't listed to them again lol)

You will do fine, it's not difficult at all. Just trust yourself like with other ammo you load.
 
The OP says he was advised to not resize fired autoloader cases for pistol cartridges.

My standard is that autoloader cases should be resized enough that they will enter the barrel chamber without binding and fall out. Doesn't have to be fully resized to industry minimum, i just have size them to a friction-free fit to the barrel I'm shooting them in.

Some autoloader barrels have feed ramps that extend into the firing chamber leaving bumps on the case where it expands at the unsupported spot on the base. I've seen casings like that left at the range. Seems to me they would have to be resized.
 
45acp, 9mm, and .380

Autoloaders headspace on case mouth
Actually not really and it depends on resized case length.
  • Semi-auto "max chamber length" is the distance between forward part of chamber with "ring step" that case mouth headspace off of (if the resized case is long enough) and the breech wall face of slide with extractor.
  • As brass is fired and resized, work hardening along with case base expansion where resizing die, more specifically carbide sizer ring, do not reach causes the case to get shorter (roll sizing resizes all the way down to case base and case rim) and case gets shorter more times it is fired and resized which is why semi-auto cases are not trimmed. (This is why mixed range brass varies in resized length even though they may have started out at the same length ... For this reason, I measure samples of each headstamp and use longer resized case length to determine the "true" max OAL)
  • So as resized brass gets shorter, it may no longer headspace off CASE MOUTH rather starts to headspace off EXTRACTOR - Picture case held by extractor with bullet nose/case mouth dangling freely at forward part of chamber ... When the firing pin/striker hits the primer, depth of indent on primer cup may be dependent on how tight the extractor is holding the case rim (I know, another myth busting thread in the making :D)
resize rarely ... do autoloaders really do better with less frequent sizing?
No because semi-auto cases produce most of neck tension from resizing and less from taper crimp.

And without full-length resizing brass after each firing, especially if you shoot many pistols with different chamber dimensions and/or use mixed range brass fired from different size chambers, you risk getting finished round stuck in the chamber of your pistol barrel and not allow the slide to return to battery.

Unlike revolver bullets with roll crimp groove applied with case mouth (reason why revolver cases are trimmed to same length), semi-auto bullets without crimp groove is mostly held by neck tension from reduction of case neck after resizing and less by taper crimp that digs into the bullet.
Since most of neck tension (Friction from bullet base contact with case) comes from thicker wall further down from the case mouth that results in slight bulging of resized case neck (And this is why increasing taper crimp won't necessarily improve neck tension on semi-auto rounds), semi-auto cases need to be resized after each firing or you will have poor neck tension.

you will get into a 12 page debate about how much to CRIMP.
Not from me.

Since wall thickness averages .011" at case mouth, adding .022" to the diameter of the bullet will just return the flare back flat on the bullet and skosh more for thicker walled brass. So for .355" sized bullet, 377" taper crimp. For .451" sized bullet, .473" taper crimp.

Overcrimping bullets can reduce bullet diameter, cut into coating/copper plating, deform jacketed bullets and bulge case neck all of which can result in poor accuracy and/or leading of barrel along with finished round not fully chambering.

bullet will likely not seat properly if neck tension is not restored. This applies to virgin brass also.
No. Bullet will not seat properly if tilted during seating. Sufficient flare amount will hold the bullet base steady so bullet can be seated straight without tilting (Indicated by one sided bulging of case neck on finished round that will make case neck oval/oblong). This applies to new and used brass.

3. Flaring ... Only needs to be enough for you to insert the bullet for seating.
No. If you can insert the bullet into the flare, it is too much (Unless you are using "M" die) as OP is using Lee press/dies.

I use just enough flare to SET THE BULLET FLAT on case mouth.

If you shave lead/coating when seating/taper crimping, consider these:
  • Since mixed range brass vary in resized length, use shorter length case to set the flare amount so longer cases will apply more flare. If flare amount is set with longer length case, then shorter length cases will receive less/no flare and will shave lead/coating. ;)
  • Since mixed range brass vary in resized length, use longer length case to set the taper crimp amount so shorter cases will apply less taper crimp. If taper crimp amount is set with shorter length case, then longer length cases will apply more taper crimp and dig into the bullet base causing lead/coating shaving. ;)
9mn ... You can do a light roll crimp, but a heavy crimp in either a roll or taper die will cause you more problems in these cartridges.
No. Semi-auto rounds that headspace off case mouth need to be taper crimped so case mouth can engage the "step ring" forward of the chamber and seal with the chamber wall to build pressure. Roll crimp will allow the chambered round to headspace off extractor and will delay sealing case mouth with chamber wall (Thinner brass wall at case mouth will expand faster than thicker case neck)

Roll crimp into bullets without crimp groove can cut into the bullet, coating, plating or jacketing which you do not want to do.

about to get set up on .45acp, 9mm, and .380
Definitely plunk test your rounds or get a case gage, especially 9mm and 380.
Yes. You can use the barrel to check resized brass to ensure they are full-length resized and finished rounds drop in and fall out freely to ensure they will feed reliably from the magazine.

No, case gage is not needed if you are only going to fire the finished rounds in your pistols. If you want to ensure the finished rounds will fully chamber in any SAAMI min/max barrel, then you need to use case gage. And if you get case gage for 380/9mm, you should get one for 45ACP too.
 
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Actually not really and it depends on resized case length.
  • Semi-auto "max chamber length" is the distance between forward part of chamber with "ring step" that case mouth headspace off of (if the resized case is long enough) and the breech wall face of slide with extractor.
  • As brass is fired and resized, work hardening along with case base expansion where resizing die, more specifically carbide sizer ring, do not reach causes the case to get shorter (roll sizing resizes all the way down to case base and case rim) and case gets shorter more times it is fired and resized which is why semi-auto cases are not trimmed. (This is why mixed range brass varies in resized length even though they may have started out at the same length ... For this reason, I measure samples of each headstamp and use longer resized case length to determine the "true" max OAL)
  • So as resized brass gets shorter, it may no longer headspace off CASE MOUTH rather starts to headspace off EXTRACTOR - Picture case held by extractor with bullet nose/case mouth dangling freely at forward part of chamber ... When the firing pin/striker hits the primer, depth of indent on primer cup may be dependent on how tight the extractor is holding the case rim (I know, another myth busting thread in the making :D)
No because semi-auto cases produce most of neck tension from resizing and less from taper crimp.

And without full-length resizing brass after each firing, especially if you shoot many pistols with different chamber dimensions and/or use mixed range brass fired from different size chambers, you risk getting finished round stuck in the chamber of your pistol barrel and not allow the slide to return to battery.

Unlike revolver bullets with roll crimp groove applied with case mouth (reason why revolver cases are trimmed to same length) , semi-auto bullets without crimp groove is mostly held by neck tension from reduction of case neck and less by taper crimp that digs into the bullet.
Since most of neck tension (Friction from bullet base contact with case) comes from thicker wall further down from the case mouth that results in slight bulging of resized case neck (And this is why increasing taper crimp won't necessarily improve neck tension on semi-auto rounds), semi-auto cases need to be resized after each firing or you will have poor neck tension.


Not from me.

Since wall thickness averages .011" at case mouth, adding .022" to the diameter of the bullet will just return the flare back flat on the bullet and skosh more for thicker walled brass. So for .355" sized bullet, 377" taper crimp. For .451" sized bullet, .473" taper crimp.

Overcrimping bullets can reduce bullet diameter, cut into coating/copper plating, deform jacketed bullets and bulge case neck all of which can result in poor accuracy and/or leading of barrel along with finished round not fully chambering.


No. Bullet will not seat properly if tilted during seating. Sufficient flare amount will hold the bullet base steady so bullet can be seated straight without tilting (Indicated by one sided bulging of case neck on finished round that will make case neck oval/oblong). This applies to new and used brass.


No. If you can insert the bullet into the flare, it is too much (Unless you are using "M" die) as OP is using Lee press/dies.

I use just enough flare to SET THE BULLET FLAT on case mouth.

If you shave lead/coating when seating/taper crimping, consider these:
  • Since mixed range brass vary in resized length, use shorter length case to set the flare amount so longer cases will apply more flare. If flare amount is set with longer length case, then shorter length cases will receive less/no flare and will shave lead/coating. ;)
  • Since mixed range brass vary in resized length, use longer length case to set the taper crimp amount so shorter cases will apply less taper crimp. If taper crimp amount is set with shorter length case, then longer length cases will apply more taper crimp and dig into the bullet base causing lead/coating shaving. ;)
No. Semi-auto rounds that headspace off case mouth need to be taper crimped so case mouth can engage the "step ring" forward of the chamber and seal with the chamber wall to build pressure. Roll crimp will allow the chambered round to headspace off extractor and will delay sealing case mouth with chamber wall (Thinner brass wall at case mouth will expand faster than thicker case neck)

Roll crimp into bullets without crimp groove can cut into the bullet, coating, plating or jacketing which you do not want to do.


Yes. You can use the barrel to check resized brass to ensure they are full-length resized and finished rounds drop in and fall out freely to ensure they will feed reliably from the magazine.

No, case gage is not needed if you are only going to fire the finished rounds in your pistols. If you want to ensure the finished rounds will fully chamber in any SAAMI min/max barrel, then you need to use case gage. And if you get case gage for 380/9mm, you should get one for 45ACP too.
not sure if you need any advice, from your good writing you know more than 90% of reloaders.
 
do autoloaders really do better with less frequent sizing?
Never heard that, I size every time. With .380, .40, .45, it isn’t necessary to size as far down as possible,

Since 9MM is a tapered case, if you have fit issues, you may have to size down further. This is where the tapered Lee 9MM sizer shines
 
I don't know if it is accurate or correct, but in some autoloader cartridges I must have had some thinner brass as I've never seen bulges with revolver cartridges, could just be my experience. To remedy bulding case mouths the flair seems to be a critical step - and I've seen this and tried it to good effect where the flair is set by just keeping going bit by bit until you can push a bullet into the mouth of the case and hold it upside down, and the case will hold onto it and not fall out. The tension on the bullet from the case is what really holds it, so - crimping is mostly just to remove the flair, too much crimp in this step will also bulge some cases - so, yea - plunk test a ton while you are getting set up. I've seen more bulges with auto loader cartrdiges, but that could be anecdotal, I haven't really done enough to know if this is more problematic with auto than revolver cartrdiges, just what I've seen.
 
Autoloaders headspace on case mouth (I understand so far) so resize rarely, and taper crimp…

If you don’t resize, it’s unlikely you will have sufficient neck tension to keep the bullet in place. It’s not uncommon at all for pistol bullets to not have a cannelure and neck tension is what we rely on to hold the bullet, not the crimp. Depending upon the projectile “crimp” for me might be just removing the bell or flare.

Going beyond that with say, plated bullets like the 4 on the right below, will just cause the bullet to be swaged smaller by the brass case. The brass “springs back” and the bullet remains the smaller diameter. So you loose neck tension and IME accuracy as well as, often, compromise the plating.

A7C0EE26-8482-4D5F-8323-6C144605AE38.jpeg
 
9mm is a tapered case
Very good point.

about to get set up on .45acp, 9mm, and .380

...seat
Because 9mm is TAPERED compared to STRAIGHT 380Auto/40S&W/45ACP, continuing to seat the bullet deeper will eventually decrease the neck tension.

With 9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN, which has shorter bullet base length compared to FP/FN/HP nose profile bullets, neck tension will continue to increase as you seat the bullet deeper from 1.160" down to 1.100". But due to the taper, seating the bullet deeper will cause the bullet to simply drop down into the case. :eek:
 
So I am a revolver/rifle loader about to get set up on .45acp, 9mm, and .380 I'm familiar with loading fl vs neck sizing in rifles and have witnessed debates over .357 sig, but I just read something interesting on the general interwebs and I'd rather hear from my more trusted thr crowd (who have rarely yet steered me wrong on anything of true value)....... Autoloaders headspace on case mouth (I understand so far) so resize rarely, and taper crimp (taper I understand) I'm stuck on the resizing part though, in revolvers, I resize, trim (if needed), flare, powder, seat, crimp. Lee 4hole at the moment, progressive later maybe, do autoloaders really do better with less frequent sizing?
Edited to defeat the almighty autocorrect!
Always resize your pistol brass, always. Always. Did I mention, always? And make sure the rounds plunk in your gun (I am a strong strong proponent of case gauges). If your ammo is going into a lot of different guns, different models, and different types......then you need to case gauge instead of barrel plunk. Default to case gauge if you have any doubt.
Failure to resize your pistol brass can result in a case not completely seating in the chamber, and firing out of battery. An OOB failure is not pleasant.

I don't know if I mentioned it......always completely resize your pistol brass.

Don't bother with trimming.

Flare the case just barely enough to seat the bullet. Most of the time you'll be using jacketed bullets which do not need much flare at all.

Taper crimp until the bell is gone, no more, no less. If you're not sure...pull a bullet after loading it, and see if it's deformed. To check if you don't have enough, you can push in on the bullet and see if you can easily push it back in the case, or whack it gently with your kinetic puller, it should not just fall out, but take a solid whack to make it come out.
 
No. If you can insert the bullet into the flare, it is too much
If you have such skill and dexterity as to get a 9mm bullet to sit ON the case mouth, more power to you, but most people need some flare so as to be able to insert the bullet INSIDE the case before seating it and crimping. But as I said, only enough flare to enable this is needed. Case does not need to look like a trumpet for this.
 
If you have such skill and dexterity as to get a 9mm bullet to sit ON the case mouth, more power to you, but most people need some flare so as to be able to insert the bullet INSIDE the case before seating it and crimping.
Not true. Depending on the bullet type used (plated bullets with rounded base, jacked bullets with rounded base, etc.), flare is not even required and you can seat the bullet without collapsing the case mouth (When I first heard of THR members doing this, I thought "No way" until I tried and what do you know? They were correct).

And please note that OP is using Lee 4 station turret or ABLP press likely with powder thru expander.
Lee 4hole at the moment
Too much flare can overly expand the resized case neck to decrease neck tension.

So depending on the bullet type used (which BTW OP did not specify), flare may not even be needed or minimal flare so you can just set the bullet base ON the flare, not IN the flare. As I already posted, expander such as "M" type will allow you to put the bullet IN the flare but OP is using Lee dies and Lee powder thru expander is not "M" type. (Now, if OP is using "M" type expander with Lee dies, my apologies).

And as I already posted, if OP is using lead/coated lead bullets, slightly more flare is needed to reduce/minimize shaving of lead/coating. And I also posted that use of longer resized length case to set the taper crimp will help not shave lead/coating as using shorter case to set the taper crimp will apply more taper crimp with longer resized length cases as Lee seat/crimp die will perform seating and crimping in one step.
 
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Not true. Depending on the bullet type used (plated bullets with rounded base, jacked bullets with rounded base, etc.), flare is not even required and you can seat the bullet.

Please note that OP is using Lee 4 station turret press likely with powder thru expander.
Too much flare can overly expand the resized case neck to decrease neck tension.

So depending on the bullet type used (which BTW OP did not specify), flare may not even be needed or minimal flare so you can just set the bullet base ON the flare, not IN the flare. As I already posted, expander such as "M" type will allow you to put the bullet IN the flare but OP is using Lee dies and Lee powder thru expander is not "M" type. (Now, if OP is using "M" type expander with Lee dies, my apologies).
LiveLife,
Your post is exactly right, and is technically excellent. But I'd say in this case (see what I did there?)....it may be too much? For somebody new to pistol caliber loading on a turret, finessing the dies like this is very dependent on the particular projectiles, dies, and setup he has to work with. I would definitely suggest OP errors on the side of "slight flare", as that is more the standard correct answer for pistol calibers (handgun in general in fact), and will remove a potential level of pain from inadvertently shaving bullets, or inconsistent powder drops from the case mouth not firmly hitting powder funnel, IE, different length brass. Just my .02, though I would not dispute your statement on it's technical merits.
 
Thank you but my reply post #23 was not for OP rather member Hugger-4641 who posted several vague/incorrect information.

And OP specifically came to THR and asked that we clarify vague "internet" disinformation.

I posted my response to OP with as detailed and clear as possible information specific to Lee die/press information.
... read something interesting on the general interwebs and I'd rather hear from my more trusted thr crowd (who have rarely yet steered me wrong on anything of true value)
Now, how many members fulfilled OP's particular request for clarification? I see many vague and incorrect/misinformation specific to OP's questions regarding equipment being used.

Yes, this is the "High Road" and we should strive and work to set a higher standard and post "higher level" reloading information instead of vague/incorrect/misinformation.

Am I correct 100% of the time? No, but I try and graciously acknowledge when I an shown to be wrong.
 
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