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Baby Eagle safety design flaw, need help.

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Dorkfish, Feb 23, 2009.

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  1. Dorkfish

    Dorkfish Member

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    I know I'm new and probably shouldn't be making potentially negative posts right off, but I am in the need of board member(s) help.

    This has yet to be identified by MRI, IWI, KBI/Charles Daly as a true flaw. It is only a potential flaw at this point and could be isolated to a batch/lot or spec related problem. Something that MRI is/will be addressing very quickly.

    Purchased a NIB Magnum Research (IWI Import) Baby Eagle/Jericho in .45ACP (slide safety model) two weeks ago. Read the manual before I shot it. Pre-cleaned accordingly, barrel seasoned accordingly (avid hunter), not more than 50 rnds per session over 4 sessions totalling 130 rounds.

    Right out of the box, the safety/decocking mechanism was firm and fluid. Upon actuating the lever to SAFE, the hammer decocked as it was supposed to. After the 130 total rounds through her, my safety/decocker no longer decocks and indicates SAFE, but the hammer is locked to the rear as is the trigger. In fact, even in this position I can pull the trigger and get a full force hammer fall! If I push the safety lever just a mm or two beyond SAFE, it will actuate the decocker.

    Upon inspection I could not see any undue wear on the hammer's lock/release bar next to the fire control group. I also do not see any wear on the safety/decocking pin located in the slide. Took it to the local FFL that sold her to me and he inspected it. No unusual signs of wear, but he could successfully replicate my problem using my firearm. His reaction: :cuss:

    Today I attempted to contact Magnum Research, who is no longer importing these, and got the usual brush-off: send it to us at YOUR expense and we'll fix it, then return it. Well, I'm not satisfied with that answer, so I visit the AutoCAD office on campus to inquire about the general mechanics and my suspicion that this is a design flaw that is fatal to the firearm and possibly others.

    He works up the very basics of the involved moving parts by my drawing and says "What the? Who's design is this? This can't work, it will shear the pin tip, wear on the contact parts, or continue to shed metal until you receive a complete failure in the system. It's an unfixable flaw without redesigning the mechanics."

    So I call the BATF and inquire, they direct me to contact all parties who could be involved (manufacturer, importers) and let them know, then to contact the Consumer Product Safety Commission and make a report. The ATF cannot get involved until there is a genuine and documented case with cause for recall, then and only then may the ATF force distributors to recall the aforementioned firearms.

    What I need help with:
    Have any of you Jericho/Baby Eagle owners (models w/ slide safety) experienced this problem?
    If so, please list the nature of the problem for me and what, if anything was done about it. (how much ammo through it when problem occurred, nature of the problem, manufacuter and distributor, resolution)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  2. Dorkfish

    Dorkfish Member

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    MRI contacted me today and asked: Was the firing pin installed upside down?

    I have no answer for this question as it would likely void my warranty to tear down the BE II this far. If anyone has information on that specific question, please post up your info as it may help MRI, IWI, or KBI/Charles Daly in the future, should any of them run into this problem.

    MRI is in-process on this issue, I'll keep you updated if they will provide the info I requested when they have the firearm.
     
  3. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Well

    If you are talking about a new gun that has not been modified, it needs to go back the manufacturer under warranty.

    You need to pursue that before anything else.

    MRI isn't known for having the best customer service. The big name well thought off manufacturers will just about always pay shipping, especially if it is a safety issue.

    Good luck.
     
  4. Charles Daly

    Charles Daly Member

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    DorkFish, as I posted on our CD Forum where you made your same claim, whatever you think ATF can do in this situation, you are wrong. ATF has no authority to force/implement a recall of a firearm and the CPSC has no authority to force/implement a recall of a firearm. In the USA, only firearms manufacturers or importers make recalls. And that is a blessing, for if the CPSC could force the recall of a firearm, there would not be any firearms sold in this country.

    Whoever you spoke to at BATF, if they told you something to the contrary, they did not know what they were talking about.

    And when you refer to a "potential" flaw, I trust you mean that your gun may have a defect. If you mean to imply that there is a design flaw then you would be wrong.

    Jericho and Baby Eagles have been sold all over the world for 20 years and no such flaw has ever surfaced. IMI/IWI have some of the finest firearm engineers in the world. They would not put a gun on the market for these 20 years with a design defect.

    Let Magnum repair your gun. That is the only thing that needs to be done and the only thing that should be done.
     
  5. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Well

    That's actually not a very good argument. More or less a fallacy.
     
  6. Charles Daly

    Charles Daly Member

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    And why would you characterize that statement as a fallacy? The Jericho has been on the market for almost 20 years. My company, KBI, imported the first Jericho's into the US, followed by Mossberg (under the UZI Eagle mark), then by Magnum Research (as the Baby Desert Eagle).

    IMI, and later IWI, sold this gun (and continues to sell this gun) all over the world. It is also in heavy use by the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and many Israeli police and security agencies.

    Extensive testing is conducted by IWI on a regular basis, both in the R&D Department and in the "real world".

    I don't have the exact numbers, but I could venture a guess that in excess of 250,000 pieces have been produced. If there is a design defect, as Dorkfish claims, then it would have surfaced a long time ago.

    That sounds like a good argument to me. But I am willing to listen to you explain why I'm mistaken.
     
  7. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Ok

    I never said there was a design flaw. Just pointing out that your appeal to authority is a classic fallacy.

    Take your argument and put in GM or Ford and talk about cars.
     
  8. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Member

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    No the OP said it was a design flaw and I didn't hear Mr. Kassner appeal to authority? You seem to be going after someone els'e statements and attributing them to him.
     
  9. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Sigh

    I'll assume by Mr. Kassner, you mean Charles Daly

    If so, then this

    says nothing about the design and why it is not a faulty one. Nothing addressing the OPs original statements about "shear on a pin tip". Just a statement about being a quality and reputable gunmaker for 20 years and that they couldn't possible make something faulty because of that. That is more or less an appeal to authority.

    It's the same as everybody responds regarding SIG, Glock, HK, etc. etc.

    Now the OP didn't give us much to work off of, so not trying to argue about the actual design.

    Also, I am not saying it's a bad design or not. Don't have enough information.
     
  10. Charles Daly

    Charles Daly Member

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    That is not what I said or what I meant. I am saying that after having produced this design for 20 years, if there was a design flaw, they would have seen it by now and would have taken corrective measures. That has not happened.
     
  11. wyocarp

    wyocarp Member

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    Am I missing something? The OP feels that, having someone say that they will take care of the problem is the "usual brush-off"?

    Dorkfish, I'll try not to be as quick to judge you as you seem to have been with Magnum Research. Send them the gun and let them fix it.

    These guns are some of the nicest you'll shoot. I'm going to make an assumption, and that is, you are as new to firearms as you are to this forum. I agree that it would be nice for them to send a call tag or money for you to send the gun back with (heck, it would be really nice if they would send a gunsmith to your home), but they offering to fix the gun and my experience with them is that they will make it right. Give them that opportunity and quit acting like a spoiled child.
     
  12. Dorkfish

    Dorkfish Member

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    Interestingly enough, I had corrected my OP to include that it was not a confirmed flaw, but it is identified as a serious issue.

    MRI's input as of yesterday: we want this firearm...get it to us immediately.

    Several things come into play here.

    1. MRI is no longer importing this firearm.
    2. MRI may have problems obtaining parts for this firearm at an undetermined date in the near future.
    3. MRI has a similar customer service reputation to that of H&K, it'll get done but only when they want to get to it (some firearm issues take priority over others...safey is held at the highest) and most likely the customer will be out even more money that is considered "incidental" and not covered under warranty to have a defective and warrantied item sent back.
    4. KBI/Charles Daly is the new importer. Jericho
    5. Readers are too heavily skeptic that this is isolated to just this firearm. Those who have served as LEO's or military know that it is never isolated to just one firearm.

    I keep getting this garbage on forums from CD regarding my resource for aiding in identifying this issue as potentially repetitive due to the basic mechancs. That's right, he's not an engineer and neither am I, but it's mechanics that can be drawn on paper and still do not work without potentially excessive wear or damage. It's simple mechanics that cause failures of this nature and if you can't accept it then just disregard my warning on this issue. I want KBI/CD to be informed to help limit their liability and trouble shoot since they're now over the Jericho line.

    So, lets put the issue back into the light it's meant to be in. It's a potential design flaw that needs to be identified and addressed, be it out of spec, batch, or lot related. MRI is in-process with my firearm and hopefully will provide me the exact findings, resolution, and part numbers/info so I can pass the information on to KBI/Charles Daly in the event that they run into this exact problem with the Jericho.

    The Baby Eagle II/Jericho is a great firearm. It's clearly one of the smoothest shooting IMI / IWI products I've owned/fired. I'd buy another in a heart beat.
     
  13. Charles Daly

    Charles Daly Member

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    I don't want to beat a dead horse, but what "garbage" are you referring to? Perhaps you mean your student with the AutoCad software?
     
  14. nofishbob

    nofishbob Member

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    I think a little clarity on the term "design defect" would help.

    If the design is as obviously flawed as Dorkfish claims, so much so that it is obvious to a person with no firearms design experience, then CD's contention that this design has been used for twenty years can not be true. Yet the facts back up CD. These guns HAVE been in use for a long time.

    There is a fundamental difference between a design flaw and a quality issue. A quality issue means that some guns will work, and some won't. A design flaw of the magnitude alleged by Dorkfish guarantees that essentially NONE of the guns will work.

    If the design was recently changed, Dorkfish's assertion could be correct. Unlikely, but possible.

    I am a Mechanical Engineer, and I have explained the function of mechanisms to more than a few people who relied on intuition rather than an understanding of the sometimes subtle operation and interaction of a complex group of parts.

    HTH

    Bob
     
  15. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Member

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    Wow. This thread is full of so much childishness is pathetic. CD made a perfectly valid point and you guys are shooting off into all kinds of weird tangents. THR is one of the only places on the internet you usually don't find this crap. I guess those days are slowly disappearing.

    OP, send your gun back and have them look at it. Your original post that is was a "design flaw" was poorly worded at best and baiting negative discussion at worst. Send it back and get over it.

    If you look at his signature you would see he signs it with his NAME. You don't have to assume that it who I'm talking about. Does that speak to how much of a post you bother to read before you decide to pop off about it? I think your motives have more to do with a disdain of CD than it does with any level of honest discussion. I'm just "assuming" that though.
     
  16. Kindrox

    Kindrox Member

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    What Jon and CD said. You don't see Ford or GM recalling cars 20 years later due to a design flaw. And guns are a much simpler mechanical system to flush problems out of. A lot of hot air is coming out of one guy for a gun that needs to go back to the factory.
     
  17. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Snicker

    Wow. Are you serious? I think you're being hypersensitive and I have no clue why.
     
  18. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    If the problem were inherent to all Baby Eagles, I would think we would have more people reporting the problem.

    That isn't to say that the OP's Baby Eagle doesn't have a problem.

    As for sending it to Magnum Research at your own cost, um...that is true of most manufacturers of anything. Since you purchased it NIB two weeks ago, it is still under the one year parts and labor warranty. Be happy it's covered and send it off.

    My Baby Eagle has well over 2000 rounds through it. The pin area the OP refers to has some very very minor etching/wear, but nothing that would make me worry about failure or needing to replace the parts.


    I agree with Charles Daly that field testing of the Baby Eagle in military and LE services as well as consumer markets would most likely have revealed this flaw by now if it were there.

    Take the first M16 rifles that saw action in Viet Nam. The problems with the rifle were almost immediately apparent. They didn't have to wait 20 years to find them out.
     
  19. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Identified by whom? I own a baby eagle, nearly every one of my friends has one or more, and we move (I kid you not) no fewer than 20 of them through the shop I help at weekly. No one has ever had a decocker malfunction that has been brought to our attention.

    This is also the first time, AFAIK, that the issue has been brought up on any of the forums I frequent.

    So how you can draw the conclusion that an (unconfirmed) defect of your particular specimen is a design flaw is beyond me.

    BTW, my baby eagle 9mm full size has more than 17,000 rounds through it without a single part failure and fewer malfunctions (of any type) than I have fingers.

    The Baby Eagle is a well executed modified copy of the venerable CZ-75, and Tanfoglio is a highly successful gunmaker with a reputation to maintain worldwide. The design is not flawed.
     
  20. bozzman3

    bozzman3 Member

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    Please send the gun back ASAP! Stop trying to make a court case out of a defective product!Have them fix it and be done with it!
     
  21. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    Sounds like a lawyer without enough billable hours looking for something to do.
     
  22. DirtMoverz

    DirtMoverz Member

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    I just googled my problem and found this thread.

    I just purchased a brand new BE2 from TheGunSource.com. Gun came in box yesterday and I opened it myself at my FFL. Everything is brand new and looks great.

    I have NOT shot the gun yet - it has been in my possesion for about 14hrs.

    I am having the same problem as DorkFish with my safety/de-cocker mechanism.

    On the older BE when the safety is in SAFE position - the trigger moves freely but nothing happens. On this new gun, when the safety is on SAFE and you pull the trigger it pulls the hammer back and then fires.
    It does this 4 out of 5 times when you are trying it.
    The same action is does when the safety is moved to FIRE.

    Also, if safety is on and you rake the slide - when you release the slide it leaves the hammer in the cocked position. Normally the hammer falls back to the safe position.

    I have not contacted MRI yet because I just recieved the gun last night.

    DorkFish - You are not alone.

    Please help..

    Thanks
     
  23. Storm

    Storm Member

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    For heaven's sake, just send the gun back.
     
  24. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Malfunctioning guns should be sent to the manufacturer for repair, if under warranty. There is no other sensible recourse or option.

    Asking strangers on an Internet forum for help with this broken gun is just silly, because there is no help that we can provide that will take a broken mechanical device and magically render it unbroken.
     
  25. raz-0

    raz-0 Member

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    I've had a 9mm Baby eagle for qutie some time. It has around 11,000 rounds thorugh it.

    I have removed and replaced the whole safety system. It still works, and has never malfunctioned in the manner indicated. After having ot figure out what all the bits are and what they do when, I'd say comfortably that unless you did the same, any pictures drawn for someone who knows how to make a shape in autocad are probably not correct.

    Removing and installing the firing pin is much like you would do on a 1911, and won't void any warranty as at some point you ahve to replace the firing pin spring due to wear and tear.

    Send the gun in for repairs, something is wrong with it if putting it into safe does not cause it to decock. It is not a design issue, but more likely an issue of something not being to spec or being broken.
     
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