Bad day at the rifle range

[troy fairweather]

In looking back at the photos of the three different Savage 116s posted earlier, it appeared that all three had failed in pretty much the same way. The receiver ring sheared in about 3 places and the receiver was sort of pealed back like a banana. Is this typical for this type of failure or is there something about the 116 actions used for WSM rounds that makes it prone to fail like this?

all the savages blowing up are the 116 witch are ss. there are many over the years, i have seen about 10 to 15 now. only the wsm and rums have gone boom. i talked to a man that worked for savage from the 80s to about 2010. he told me the actions for the 116 were made out of house and i would not like them if he told me where they got them from.

 

[Glockula]

I'm pretty sure it was a stock 116. The barrel, obviously not in the picture looked good. There was scarring around the chamber and I think some brass left in there but the barrel it self looked just fine.

I truly cannot imagine dumping something like Bullseye or 2400 in a rifle case but it seems so m likely here. I shot some of my hand loads in .308 today out of my new to me savage 10 FP-SR. That's what I was at the range to do the other day. It shot very well and was good to "get back on the horse" .

I don't see this as a reason to stop hand loading or look down on it. I see this as fortification of good hand loading procedure, triple checking load data, and educating yourself on the subject before attempting to hand load.

Lots of people have chimed in with good procedures such as only working with one powder on the bench and labeling the powder measure. I personally always record the brass used, primer, projectile, COAL, date, caliber, powder used and charge weight before starting. I also like to check multiple sources for load data with new combos and make educated decisions based on my knowledge of burn rates and prior experience. If something seems off it probably is. I am also compulsive about having at least 2 scales agree for the first couple powder drops used to charge cases.

To date no squib and no kabooms. I think the take away here is don't get complacent hand loading and no short cuts. Stay safe out there and respect the hobby.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Saw this with my own eyes. Ruger old style Blackhawk. Pilgrim had gotten one of the old Lee loading sets and a mallet. He got a can of "pistol powder" and commenced to load. He came up with compressed charges of Bullseye. The receiver was shattered and the top strap gone. Half the cylinder was gone etc. etc.You got to get hold of the idea that some people can break the point off an anvil. A human did something that caused that KB. Years ago I was working in Louisville. There was a large hardware store with brisk gun business. In the gun department was a large old fashioned glass display case. The case was full of KB'ed firearms of all sorts. Humans had to do with those specimens also.

Addendum: In another forum one of the resident gurus stated you could fill cartridges to the top with 4831 without pressure problems. That got many responses. That's how some folks get into trouble "reloading."

 

[Demi-human]

Humans are most fallible. They can believe things that are not. They can think things would never happen that do. They can see things that are not what there are.

And yet I hope I am good enough to be one someday...

I am glad you got out today. It is strange to think of the decisions we make that impact our lives, whether we realize we are making them or not.

I am reminded I am much less perfect than my dog thinks I am. Thank you for the post. I hope you can see the old man again.

 

[boom boom]

I was about 3 feet away at 4:00 or so almost directly facing the shooter when the rifle exploded. The bolt hit me dead center about 5 inches below my solar plexus. Definitely sore. Lol .

Glad you are okay. It is bad enough to have something happen when you fire a rifle but you were an innocent bystander.

 

[carpboy]

all the savages blowing up are the 116 witch are ss. there are many over the years, i have seen about 10 to 15 now. only the wsm and rums have gone boom. i talked to a man that worked for savage from the 80s to about 2010. he told me the actions for the 116 were made out of house and i would not like them if he told me where they got them from.

Troy,
I am glad that you are staying with this thread. From what you have shown with the photographs and from earlier reports I have come across indicate to me that it is probably not a reloading problem that caused the guns to fail, but a defect in the receivers that caused them to self destruct. And an earlier account I came across that also featured the first picture you had posted speculated that the receivers Savage was using for the WSM and rum calibers were made in China and were improperly heat-treated. This jibes with with what you had just posted with your conversation with the worker from Savage. It appears to me that from the pictures of the first and second rifles you posted that the receiver started to crack at the base of the barrel Shank and finally let go separating the shank from the receiver and the receiver peeling itself back like a banana. All this advice about reloading is great but my question is what if the shooter was found to be using Factory ammo? As a Savage fan I am keenly interested in this since I am a lefty. I am not worried about any problems with any of my rifles because I do not have any of the WSM or Rum models.

 

[troy fairweather]

Troy,
I am glad that you are staying with this thread. From what you have shown with the photographs and from earlier reports I have come across indicate to me that it is probably not a reloading problem that caused the guns to fail, but a defect in the receivers that caused them to self destruct. And an earlier account I came across that also featured the first picture you had posted speculated that the receivers Savage was using for the WSM and rum calibers were made in China and were improperly heat-treated. This chimes with with what you had just posted with your conversation with the worker from Savage. It appears to me that from the pictures of the first and second rifles you posted that the receiver started to crack at the base of the barrel Shank and finally let go separating the shank from the receiver and the receiver peeling itself back like a banana. All this advice about reloading is great but my question is what if the shooter was found to be using Factory ammo? As a Savage fan I am keenly interested in this since I am a lefty. I am not worried about any problems with any of my rifles because I do not have any of the WSM or Rum models.

i have a first year savage 114 so i have bin on the lookout about these guns. from all accounts its only the stainless steal guns blowing up. u can see from the photos these gun blow up in a not very common way like u have said. even p.o ackley and j thacher did not have any do this.

the other problem is savage did not address these kabooms. the one photo with the burris the man could not even get savage to look at the rifle because he could not prove it was that rifle, the gun grenaded so bad he could not even find the arts to the receiver with the serial numbers. on a good note he said he called burris about the scope the replaced it.

 

[carpboy]

i have a first year savage 114 so i have bin on the lookout about these guns. from all accounts its only the stainless steal guns blowing up. u can see from the photos these gun blow up in a not very common way like u have said. even p.o ackley and j thacher did not have any do this.

the other problem is savage did not address these kabooms. the one photo with the burris the man could not even get savage to look at the rifle because he could not prove it was that rifle, the gun grenaded so bad he could not even find the arts to the receiver with the serial numbers. on a good note he said he called burris about the scope the replaced it.

As as you say the big problem is Savage did not address these catastrophic failures or acknowledge them directly, but they did it in a round about way by discontinuing the RUM calibers. I did not know that the WSM calibers shared the same receivers, and had not heard about any failures till I came across this thread. I was not sure from the discussion of the first picture if that rifle was a stainless steel model, I was under the impression that it was a blue steel model.

 

[troy fairweather]

As as you say the big problem is Savage did not address these catastrophic failures or acknowledge them directly, but they did it in a round about way by discontinuing the RUM calibers. I did not know that the WSM calibers shared the same receivers, and had not heard about any failures till I came across this thread. I was not sure from the discussion of the first picture if that rifle was a stainless steel model, I was under the impression that it was a blue steel model.

all the 116 savages are ss. the actions will take the rounds fine. the one with the large shank barrel will withstand a 338 lapua. the small shank early action like i have the 338 l is not the best idea not because the action is week but the barrel shank is smaller, i have heard from some shooter that rebarreled the small shanks to 338l with a real hot load can goose egg the chamber, the lapua case is bigger the the rums. but no kabooms. there are no steel guns that have blown up. only the 116s have.

 

[carpboy]

all the 116 savages are ss. the actions will take the rounds fine. the one with the large shank barrel will withstand a 338 lapua. the small shank early action like i have the 338 l is not the best idea not because the action is week but the barrel shank is smaller, i have heard from some shooter that rebarreled the small shanks to 338l with a real hot load can goose egg the chamber, the lapua case is bigger the the rums. but no kabooms. there are no steel guns that have blown up. only the 116s have.

Thanks for the info Troy.I will be following this thread. I hope we can gather more info on this scary situation.

 

[sota]

I could derail this thread for at least another page with first hand accounts of negligent discharge stories from my military years.

I vote you start another thread and regale us with these tales.

 

[Elkins45]

That photo gives me the willies. I had a case head let go on a LH Savage 110 in 270 and it was alarming, but the gun held together just fine. It's pure speculation, but my guess would be a case full of pistol powder. Like maybe there was some powder left in the bottom of the measure from a previous loading session.

I feel terrible for the shooter, but at least he's still alive. That could easily have been fatal.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Probably the wrong powder. I use separate toolheads each with their own powder measure, not entirely for this reason but partially.

I also use a pistol powder (Green Dot) that is visually very distinct from all my rifle powders. It is also bulky for a 9mm powder, so a double charge will overflow the case and it is immediately obvious.


Pistol powder in a rifle case is bad bad news. Especially a very quick powder like Bullseye. Kaboom.


He probably has one powder hopper and didn't clean it out or forgot what powder was in it.

 

[Paul7]

Handloading offers huge advantages over factory loads. I have two rifles I’d probably have sold if not for finding the handload for them. And now my handloads offer vastly superior accuracy and performance for much less money than I can buy factory ammo that shot like crap. If factory ammo is so superior, why do competition shooters shoot handloads?

Because they're competition shooters, I'm not. I mainly use rifles for hunting, and have often gotten sub 1" groups with factory ammo, why would I reload?

Do you have pots and pans in your house? Seasonings? Why? Restaurants can produce a higher quality of food than you can

Not really, I'm a pretty good cook, and even if I wasn't, a lethal kaboom isn't a concern with that hobby.

 

[Paul7]

So I take it you’ve gotten a new car with automated driving?

Bad example, they crash.

No home projects, huh?

Nope. I also hire a gardener and a house cleaner.

Not sure someone with that attitude evens fools with guns, honestly. May as well look at photos of a car accident and swear off driving.

Really dumb analogy.

I'm sure every reloader thinks a KB will never happen to them.

 

[ATLDave]

And most reloaders are right and never will blow up a gun.

Many activities have risks if they are done improperly. The choices are to forgo those activities or to only do them properly. Shooting is one such activity. Driving is another. Reloading is a third.

 

[Paul7]

And most reloaders are right.

I'm sure the guy in the OP thought so. To each his own.

 

[ATLDave]

I'm sure the guy in the OP thought so. To each his own.

I’m sure every person who drove into a telephone pole thought they wouldn’t. A few people believe that and are wrong. Most aren’t.

 

[Paul7]

I’m sure every person who drove into a telephone pole thought they wouldn’t. A few people believe that and are wrong. Most aren’t.

OK, I just don't see the upside of reloading considering the danger, however slight, and the fact I'm getting MOA from factory ammo. YMMV

 

[otisrush]

OK, I just don't see the upside of reloading considering the danger, however slight, and the fact I'm getting MOA from factory ammo. YMMV

IMHO you've hit the nail on the head: You're achieving your objectives with factory ammo. So from the standpoint of achieving the accuracy you want/need, if there are *no* other reasons you might want to reload, then you absolutely should not.

I've believed for quite a while the most important factor in deciding to reload is whether someone WANTS to reload. It's only by wanting to reload that people will apply the sufficient mental energy and attention to detail to do it safely. If someone's not really into it (whatever those reasons might be) then the chances for errors skyrocket, in my opinion.

While reloading for you might be "dangerous" (because you're not really into it) that doesn't necessarily translate to meaning it's dangerous for all. I find riding my bicycle on the road incredibly nerve wracking and, therefore, dangerous *for me*. The actual dangers to everyone else are more than likely less than the level it bothers me. I don't ride on the roads because it bothers me. But I don't consider someone foolish for doing so if they want.

 

[Paul7]

IMHO you've hit the nail on the head: You're achieving your objectives with factory ammo. So from the standpoint of achieving the accuracy you want/need, if there are *no* other reasons you might want to reload, then you absolutely should not.

I've believed for quite a while the most important factor in deciding to reload is whether someone WANTS to reload. It's only by wanting to reload that people will apply the sufficient mental energy and attention to detail to do it safely. If someone's not really into it (whatever those reasons might be) then the chances for errors skyrocket, in my opinion.

A good point, I would assume if you enjoy reloading it is more safe. Maybe the KBs you read about are by those who feel they *need* to for reasons of accuracy or power, but who aren't that into it.

While reloading for you might be "dangerous" (because you're not really into it) that doesn't necessarily translate to meaning it's dangerous for all. I find riding my bicycle on the road incredibly nerve wracking and, therefore, dangerous *for me*. The actual dangers to everyone else are more than likely less than the level it bothers me. I don't ride on the roads because it bothers me. But I don't consider someone foolish for doing so if they want.

Maybe it is nerve wracking for you because it really is dangerous. You never know what the other guy is going to do, and a bike vs. car/truck isn't pretty. Personally I only bike ride on bike trails.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

I think there is something to be said for getting into cartridge loading for the "right reasons." In my opinion someone should look at a reloading hobby for similar reasons as you might get into becoming a private pilot, machining, etc. It's a craft that you should have a healthy respect for the dangers involved. Just like saving money on airfare isn't the best reason to become a private pilot, saving money might not be the right reason to start reloading. It's quite dangerous and potentially life changing/threatening you don't take the time to really learn along the way. Those who will always makes safety their 1st priority, have some focus on accuracy, who are very particular, organized, analytical, observant, and meticulous are those who are really good candidates for reloading. I've actually talked a couple of people I know out of reloading. These are the kind of people who leave paintbrushes in paint buckets to dry up after they paint because they don't have the attention span to clean up after they do something. People can do whatever they want with their own stuff, but I personally think that reloading isn't for everyone.

IMHO you've hit the nail on the head: You're achieving your objectives with factory ammo. So from the standpoint of achieving the accuracy you want/need, if there are *no* other reasons you might want to reload, then you absolutely should not.

I've believed for quite a while the most important factor in deciding to reload is whether someone WANTS to reload. It's only by wanting to reload that people will apply the sufficient mental energy and attention to detail to do it safely. If someone's not really into it (whatever those reasons might be) then the chances for errors skyrocket, in my opinion.

While reloading for you might be "dangerous" (because you're not really into it) that doesn't necessarily translate to meaning it's dangerous for all. I find riding my bicycle on the road incredibly nerve wracking and, therefore, dangerous *for me*. The actual dangers to everyone else are more than likely less than the level it bothers me. I don't ride on the roads because it bothers me. But I don't consider someone foolish for doing so if they want.

A good point, I would assume if you enjoy reloading it is more safe. Maybe the KBs you read about are by those who feel they *need* to for reasons of accuracy or power, but who aren't that into it.



Maybe it is nerve wracking for you because it really is dangerous. You never know what the other guy is going to do, and a bike vs. car/truck isn't pretty. Personally I only bike ride on bike trails.

 

[Riomouse911]

Hmmm.... If the 116's that have been seen blown up are all WSM's, I wonder if people are loading 7mm Rem/Weatherby Mag or .300 Win/Weatherby Mag data for the WSM's and those larger cases utilize larger amounts of powder inside? I've read the WSM's get the same velocities with smaller powder charges because they're more efficient, and velocity claimed for the WSM line is pretty high. It may lead to an inexperienced or distracted person to miss the correct load data and read the wrong one if they're chasing velocity numbers. I don't know if that is enough to cause one of those, but it may be something...

Those pictures are of A-1 catastrophic failures, not just a run of the mill blown primer or even a stuck bolt!

I hope the guy has some sort of normal life after this. And glad you didn't take the bolt in the eye, across the beak or somewhere else that would leave permanent damage!

Stay safe!

 

[cdb1]

I reload for one rifle cartridge, 6.5x55. I don’t particularly enjoy it but that doesn’t mean it is more dangerous for me. I’m very anal and paranoid when I’m reloading, so much so that I don’t even listen to music, don’t want the possible distraction. I feel just as safe shooting my reloads as I do shooting factory ammunition.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

My basic reaction is to ask for some hard evidence on these made in China receivers. It's hard to get wrapped around the idea of Savage not inspecting these receivers prior to putting together WSM and the others. We live in an age of "false news." Not doubting anybody but some hard evidence and hard sources would make this reader more comfortable. You can blame the politicians for the skepticism. A recall for example would be expected. The simplest answer remains a massive charge of the wrong powder. I will continue to reloaded including 300 WSM until they shovel dirt in my face. I have read of the same thing happening with a Tikka rifle. Likewise, it will be sad music and slow walking before my rifle is retired.

Analogies: These things goof up any discussion. We start with a KB and end up discussing if we can get radiation poisoning from our microwave.