Bad powder at such young age

[Walkalong]

Agnotology is: why don't you know, what you don't know?

Oh, I like this, gonna remember it.

 

[Slamfire]

I've been handloading for 48 years now. I have seen old military ammo that looked like many of these pictures, but never seen it in any commercial or handloads that I assembled. In that 48 years, I've had three cans of powder degrade, all were IMR powders, two were opened containers that were given to me (so I can't say how they were stored), and one was a sealed can of IMR 4064 that I bought and stored for about 15 years. Right now I have several cans of ball powder that I bought in the mid 70's that appear to be like new. All my powder is stored in a well insulated loading room that is not temperature controlled. Even with Montana's temperature extremes, I've never seen a temperature below 30 degrees in the winter, or above 80 degrees in the summer in that room. In addition, Montana has very low humidity.

This is Norma ammunition, commercial, not looking very good. I would not shoot the stuff.



I would like more pictures of deteriorated gunpowder, really makes the point that powder can go bad in the can.

 

[otblue]

Mind if I copy your photos and use them? I have been writing for years about gunpowder deterioration, and your pictures are good.

Twenty years is a long time for gunpowder. Ammunition manufacturer's provide ten year shelf lives, that is all they are going to promise. I recently fired these rounds, case neck cracks all around. I don't have the pictures, but I did have some 1989 rounds, that I reloaded, everyone one of them cracked their case necks.

View attachment 799911


It is up to us to educate our shooting buds about gunpowder lifetime. Industry is not going to do it. They don't stamp a "use by" date on ammunition, because, you might not buy old ammunition, or you might get fussy and want new ammunition. Horror's!

If I had known that gunpowder had a shelf life, I would not have stocked up on so much gun powder. I have tossed out 80% of all the surplus powders I purchased. I did not know the things were withdrawn from inventory because they were so old, the military was afraid to issue them to their troops, or to store the stuff, because it might auto com bust in bulk.

Just today, at the range, talked to a retired Navy Vietnam veteran. He personally witnessed a fellow sailor shooting an issue 1911, with old, issue ammunition, and the pistol his bud was shooting, blew up!

You did good by pulling bullets and inspecting. You just don't know what might have happened with the old stuff. Maybe just cracked cases, maybe a firearm in pieces:

View attachment 799912


Anyway I have been dumping mid nineties gunpowders I bought new. Complete jugs of Accurate Arms stick powders (AA4064) and Vihtavouri powders.

View attachment 799913

There is unfortunately, a lot of denial about gunpowder having a shelf life. Optimists think they can drink liquor and smoke cigars, everyday, and live to a 100 , just like George Burns. He was an outlier, I have buried friends who died a lot younger, who smoked less. Maybe this will help convince you to keep on smoking:
View attachment 799968

I have had the same experience with case neck cracking of ammunition I reloaded (previously once fired Norma brass) in the 80's. Mine wasn't as bad as yours, mostly just longitudinal splits.

What was interesting was I also had a batch of ammunition reloaded at exactly the same time with the same components except the brass was new unfired. Those performed normally with no cracks.

In those days I was just wiping over used brass with a cloth and reloading them so I speculated that decades of exposure to chemical residue from firing has somehow made the fired brass brittle.

I started cleaning all my brass between firings a couple of decades ago, first just washing, then vibratory tumblers then ultrasonics and now a either US's or rotary tumbling.

I haven't had a repeat of the neck splitting but then I might have to wait a bit longer to see what happens.

 

[GW Staar]

Interesting stuff.....

I've been looking at where you all are from........Slamfire.....Alabama, Shimitup.... Houston for example. Lived in Miss. and Louisi. for a few years. Not pleasant in the summer humidity, for a westerner like me.

I'm not too surprised that powder don't last long down in those parts. I have some powder left over from 1972 and it looks and smells the same as new. Still won't shoot it because modern reloading books don't base their recipes on 46 year-old powder.......guess I'm keeping it to see how long it lasts.

Living in dry as a cobb, NW New Mexico, I've never seen all that blue rust on my old ammo......but this thread is a good case for rotation! Like I already do food storage, huh? Yup, and I need to get out and shoot more than I do.

 

[Blue68f100]

Interesting stuff.....

I've been looking at where you all are from........Slamfire.....Alabama, Shimitup.... Houston for example. Lived in Miss. and Louisi. for a few years. Not pleasant in the summer humidity, for a westerner like me.

I'm not too surprised that powder don't last long down in those parts. I have some powder left over from 1972 and it looks and smells the same as new. Still won't shoot it because modern reloading books don't base their recipes on 46 year-old powder.......guess I'm keeping it to see how long it lasts.

Living in dry as a cobb, NW New Mexico, I've never seen all that blue rust on my old ammo......but this thread is a good case for rotation! Like I already do food storage, huh? Yup, and I need to get out and shoot more than I do.

You just need to find the old printed load data manuals that they gave away for free. I have several from the 60's, 70's and 80's.

 

[Toprudder]

You just need to find the old printed load data manuals that they gave away for free. I have several from the 60's, 70's and 80's.

There may be good info in the Ken Waters "Pet Loads" book as well. I've seen lots of old powders listed in there.

 

[Salmoneye]

Slamfire's pics of the Norma ammo came from me...

The pictures are ugly enough, but seeing the things in front of me, and in my hands, gave me a new perspective...

I did not photograph the rounds that outwardly looked 'OK', but once disassembled I found corrosion and bad powder inside...

I used to be a proponent of firing old stuff if it was not collectable, but I now understand that even visually acceptable ammo may indeed be a problem...

 

[Shimitup]

Just got back from the store with $160 of fresh powder, not going through the bullet pulling again in my lifetime.

 

[Shimitup]

I thought I'd share a few more photos of my discoveries as I dig through my old powder stock, these all purchased in March of 89. Come to think of it the RE7 and BD are a few years newer. Not loading this in anything. I have shot some of this stock of the Blue Dot and W296 recently and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, though I didn't chronograph any, the feel was very consistent and it was accurate.

 

[buck460XVR]

Do not assume that because you are ignorant that everyone else is ignorant.

Reminds me of a saying my grandpa had....."Just 'cause you know one thing, don't mean you know everything!". He always told us kids that when we got too smart for our britches. Just sayin'.......

I believe most of us folks here, come here to learn/glean information. Most of the time we get that from folks with more knowledge that we have on a particular subject. Sometimes, we are even blessed to share knowledge we have, that someone else is seeking. Ignorance can be "lack of knowledge" of a specific thing or it can be a lack of overall general knowledge. I'm thinking all of us fall into the first definition.