Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ballistic gelatin test results : .357 Magnum Black Talon (180gr)

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Brass Fetcher, Apr 13, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Brass Fetcher

    Brass Fetcher Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Eastern border of the United States
    Special thanks to JohnKSa for providing the ammunition for this test and in so-doing, fueling my gelatin habit. :)

    Cartridge : 180gr Winchester Black Talon

    Firearm : .357 Magnum revolver with 2.5" barrel length

    Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 12.4cm @ 601 ft/sec)

    Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 1092 ft/sec, penetrated to 13.9" and was recovered at 0.632" average diameter.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  2. RIDE

    RIDE Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    199
    Thank you for all of your AWESOME posts JE223!!!!
     
  3. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    Fascinating. I've actually got some of that stuff. I would have expected overpenetration. Whatever folks say about .357 heavy HP's, that bullet has to be the meanest looking projectile I've ever seen. It's the perfect combination of a full wadcutter and an array of ginsu knives.
     
  4. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ
    Is this the older, true titled "Black Talons"?
    Or is it the current generation Winchester "Ranger" which is essentially the same Black Talon just the newer, improved incarnation?

    I ask because I hear the two rounds' names inter-changed so frequently anymore it's hard to tell sometimes which one is being referenced.

    BTW, thanks for sharing!

    I'm always interested in seeing performance pics of the Winchester Black Talon family. I run Rangers in my .45 ACP, 9 mm and even the lowly 380 ACP . I run 180 gr. Winchester Partition Gold thru the .357 because I was unaware there was any .357 Ranger "Black Talon" ammo in production.
     
  5. Jim March

    Jim March Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    8,732
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I think that's the real (bleeeeeep), guys. Note the black coat, the pointy bits...

    Penetration is actually amazingly shallow for a 180. Sucker must be popping open like a cluster of switchblades owned by meth-heads.

    Heap big medicine.
     
  6. Brass Fetcher

    Brass Fetcher Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Eastern border of the United States
    @Mike U. - Yes, it's is the Black Talon, "2/3 evil-by-weight bullet". You should look at the gelatin results of the .380ACP Ranger bullet, IMO... In the 2 shots that I fired from a Kel-Tec P3AT, I got no deeper than 8.0" penetration. The Ranger (or Black Talon) line of bullets are near-perfection in my opinion... but this particular bullet penetrates so shallow and it is very surprising that it does.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
  7. gomer

    gomer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    63
    Wow, I'm really impressed with the expansion on that sucker as compared to some of the 158gr rounds. I would have expected full penetration of the block from that round. It just goes to show that testing a round is MUCH better than going by what you "think" it should do.
     
  8. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ
    Brass Fetcher,

    Yes sir, I agree with your assessment on the .380 results. This particular .380 was bought waaay back when I was younger and "economically challenged". :D
    I think I keep it around as a reminder of what was and hopefully what never will be again. I never carry it(in the last couple of decades at least) and have been hemming and hawing about getting rid of it because it's doing nothing but taking up space in the safe.
    Reason being is the very statement you cite. It's not nearly effective enough and FMJ is the only round in this caliber that'll get deep enough to do any fight stopping damage. And FMJ seems to traditionally just plain :barf: in that arena.

    I bought the Rangers for it when I discovered a seller at one of the gun shows here and spent hundreds of dollars loading up on every caliber he had the Rangers in. A case of 9mm, case of .45 ACP(regular and +P), half a case of 12 ga. slugs, half a case of buckshot, box of .380 and so on.
    I was looking for a particular gun that day, but, when I saw a nearly full line of Ranger ammo, well, bye-bye went the gun money. :what: I still left the show a very happy man. ;) :D :D
     
  9. Brass Fetcher

    Brass Fetcher Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Eastern border of the United States
  10. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ
    It's one of those cheap Jennings (Bryco) .380's. Had it since around the early 80's. Better jobs and a couple of years after buying it I was into magnums(.357 and .41) and 9mm for an auto-loader so the little .380 fell into dis-use. The only real reason I have Rangers for it is my belief that if I own any gun, I need to have ammo for it on-hand. I ran 18 rounds thru it to check for reliable feeding and back into the safe it went.
    I have a Kel-Tec P-11 for pocket carry that is about the same size as the .380, so the .380 has effectively been obsoleted. :)
     
  11. Odd Job
    • Contributing Member

    Odd Job Can probably X-ray it

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2006
    Messages:
    6,135
    Location:
    London (ex SA)
  12. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ
    Odd Job,

    That was a heckuva good read. Thank you!

    I'd been interested in the evolution of the Talon/Ranger loads and this was very enlightening!
     
  13. ARTiger

    ARTiger Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    803
    Mike U: Here is the info on Ranger SXT's in .380 [RA380TP] (and other calibers) from Winchester's law enforcement site . . . As you'll see JE223's test data on the .380 is spot on with Winchester's. About 8" is all the Ranger .380 has to offer. The Federal 90 grain HSJHP penetrates better and many carry flat pointed FMJ as well for expansion.

    [​IMG]

    I've been using the 127 +P+ in my 9mm's, but the bonded +P's (sans talons) seems to penetrate better in denim and hvy cloth but give up a small bit of expansion.
     
  14. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ
    ARTiger,

    WOW! This info is Gold! Those .380's open up pretty good for the most part, but, that penetration flat out stinks.
    You guys have helped me to make up my mind. I appreciate the help. I'm taking these .380 Rangers out to punch some paper with them just to burn them up. Then I'll see if one of the local gun shops wants to buy it. In all honesty, I have no real world use for a .380 ACP. I already have a snubby .38 and a pocket 9mm so the CCW base is well covered. :cool:
     
  15. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    14,886
    Location:
    Centennial, CO
    Wow. Now that's a snub-nosed load! 180 gr at OVER 1000fps.

    How bad is the kick on that and does Winchester make a Ranger version?
     
  16. Brass Fetcher

    Brass Fetcher Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Eastern border of the United States
    The kick was not an issue at all - it was about the same as the Speer Gold Dot 158gr... which, in the all-steel revolver was not much. It felt about the same as a 1911, using standard .45ACP ammo. But - the 'Buck Fever' effect is present when shooting gelatin... as you know, it takes some doing to go from gelatin powder to gelatin block on table at range, so I really want the shot to go right (high pressure/stress on shooter)! I don't remember shooting the 45-70gov that made the mess-of-block that comes up on the front page of my site, for instance.

    I would expect the recoil to be on par with a hot .45 in a 1911.
     
  17. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    12,783
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Wow...

    That's very impressive performance for 180 gr .357Mag out of a snubby.

    I may have to take another look at the Ranger line.
     
  18. Brass Fetcher

    Brass Fetcher Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Eastern border of the United States
    @JohnKSa - These were actually the evil 'Black Talon' bullets... sent to me by a fella on THR ... :)

    Although I don't see any difference between the Ranger and the Talon line... both really impress me, in most calibers.
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    There does seem to be a difference in the way the petals unfold. On the original BT's the wadcutter underneath is very clearly defined, as are the cutting petals. On SXT's and Rangers the wadcutter is less clearly defined and the petals are more "dull" and sloppy. Not, of course, that it makes any difference at 1,000+ fps.
     
  20. ozwyn

    ozwyn Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    714
    Location:
    Maryland
    Any thoughts on that round out a levergun for a levergun/revolver "all purpose load" ?

    Seems like out of a small barrel it does the job just fine.... which makes me wonder about performance from longer barrelled weapons.
     
  21. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    12,783
    Location:
    DFW Area
    Me too!

    See John--if you feed them they only want more! :D

    I didn't know that these were 180 gr bullets when I sent them so it was a surprise to see that part of the results. I received these rounds as part of a trade/purchase from a coworker--I knew that they were BT but that's about it.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page