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Ballistic gelatin test results : 7 1/2 birdshot (UPDATE: #8 shot, Post 75, 7/22/09)

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Brass Fetcher, Jul 27, 2008.

  1. Brass Fetcher

    Brass Fetcher Senior Member

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    The 65 pound gelatin block rose up to about a 45-degree angle immediately after firing.

    ==========
    Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing

    Test # Bird 1
    Bare gelatin block
    (Nominal 10% concentration)

    Cartridge : 12 gauge Winchester Super Speed Xtra 7 1/2 shot, 2 3/4 inches, 1 ounce

    Block Calibration : 3.3 ± 0.05 inch penetration @ 597 ± 0.5 ft/sec

    Block Calibration temperature : 36.1 ± 0.05 Degrees Fahrenheit

    Block Core temperature : 37.9 ± 0.05 Degrees Fahrenheit

    Bullet Performance:

    Impact Velocity : 1317 ± 0.5 feet/second
    Deepest Penetration Depth : 5.9 ± 0.05 Inch
    Maximum Crack Diameter : 4.5 ± 0.05 Inch
    Max Crack Diameter Location : 2.3 ± 0.05 Inch
    Cavitation Depth : 0.0-5.9 ± 0.05 Inch

    Notes:
    Weapon - New England Firearms Pardner, with 24.0" barrel and cylinder choke.

    Distance - 10.0 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face

    Test site conditions - 67 deg F, 46% relative humidity

    Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 6 minutes

    Bullet recovered weight - All shot pellets and wadding recovered

    Bullet recovered average diameter - 0.090 ± 0.0005"

    Bullet recovered length - Not applicable.

    Shot pattern was 3.8" in diameter on the impact face of the gelatin block.

    [​IMG]
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  2. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Senior Member

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    Thank's for sharing. I would have guessed a little more penetration, but then, that's what you're here for.

    Thank's again.

    Ken
     
  3. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Senior Member

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    With a "wound track" thats nearly 4 inches wide, who needs penetration?
     
  4. Zip7

    Zip7 Member

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    Yeah, and who says you have to use no choke? How about High brass 6's or 4's through a full choke from ten feet? Or BB's? Steel Shot?

    Basically this is a low brass dove load. I wouldn't want to be shot with it... People poo poo it all the time, but I wouldn't feel too undergunned with a 12 gauge and whatever kind of shell I had lying around from 10' away.
     
  5. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Senior Member

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    Anybody who wants to reliably penetrate to and disrupt vital structures like the heart, lungs, and major blood vessels.
     
  6. FFMedic

    FFMedic Member

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    Wow, that's not far at all. Imagine a fat guy with a leather jacket on holding a crowbar above his head and 4" isn't much.

    Take into account that a large portion of the shot will hit a rib or the sternum most likely if you aim COM and it's even worse.

    If I find myself with only birdshot and I'm under attack, I'm going with head shots.

    FFMedic
     
  7. Dave Williams

    Dave Williams Member

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    Thanks for the testing.

    Dave Williams
     
  8. dak0ta

    dak0ta Senior Member

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    aim for the head...
     
  9. SN13

    SN13 Member

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    12ga 7 1/2 birdshot to the face from across the room would certainly ruin your day.
     
  10. rbernie

    rbernie Senior Member

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    Anyone intending to use the load for self defense and who actually wants to stop a threat rather than just create a shallow bloody wound.

    Yeah, but it's not like the target is gonna stand and pose for you. Hitting a bobbing moving 12" round target while in a hurry and under stress is not a trivial exercise. Aim center mass, and use something that's tested to reliably penetrate at least 12" of ballistic gel under FBI test protocols.

    Thanks, Brassfetcher. This test shows exactly what needed to be shown - birdshot is for birds.

    I am curious - how far did the shotcup penetrate?
     
  11. fletcher

    fletcher Senior Member

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    Another great test. By the way, I like your new backlighting choice for the gelatin - makes it very visible and consistent.
     
  12. waterhouse

    waterhouse Senior Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to do this and post the results.
     
  13. lions

    lions Senior Member

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  14. mtngunr

    mtngunr Member

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    I very much appreciate the post....it performs about the same on larger pests, too...messy, effective....whatever you wanted to stop has stopped after getting whacked with one....
     
  15. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting the results. Makes me thankful for a tube full of 00 buck.

    Folks, keep in mind folks that this is bare gelatin and it lacks any bone structure to stop pellets. 6" penetration here under ideal circumstances at a testing range of 10 feet. Badguys have sternums and ribs. Most of them will be wearing clothes too. These things will limit effectiveness.

    In the real world you'll get less than 6" due to bone structure, clothing, distance. Longest possible shot within my house is 33 feet. Measure yours. You'll be surprised.

    Bring enough gun.
     
  16. mtngunr

    mtngunr Member

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    I know this is probably the wrong thread to discuss this, but the ethical and legal reason for shooting a human is to DETER, not kill...a person being hit with a load of birdshot at distances best measured in feet will have lost all thought of continuing whatever behavior you wished to modify....don't under-rate birdshot or over-rate buckshot, both of which I see here constantly.
     
  17. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Senior Member

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    Actually the reason is to STOP. Deterrence has already failed at that point if you're in an active shooting situation in your home. If you are trying to stop an attack that means the person may be (probably is) armed. So your gonna bet on stopping that attack with the most inneffective anti-personnel round you can load into a shotgun? I'm not gonna overrate buckshot or especially birdshot.
     
  18. HB

    HB Senior Member

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    Thanks for the test..... For those who think bird is as good as buck, one word: RIBS

    HB
     
  19. KiltedClaymore

    KiltedClaymore Senior Member

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    that wound will make you bleed out REALquick!
     
  20. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

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    Never saw birdshot in gelatin but went to a shooting where guy was shot with 71/2 birdshoot in 12 ga at a distance of 2 feet.The guy went down and never spoke another word.He was dead on arrival in 10 minutes.There was hardly any blood.The shot entered the lower stomach and intestines came out the entrance wound sealing the bleeding inside.At the hospital,the body sloshed inside while moving him to take x rays.The majority of the birdshot stayed in the stomach&chest cavity however a few of the pellets made it all the way to the neck area and also down through the legs.I saw one pellet coming through the skin by one of his ankles.The x rays showed up like many lights on a Xmas tree because the rays don't penetrate lead.I could not believe the devastation done to this guy.Yes gelatin is nice but I saw the real deal.I would not hesitate using any size birdshot for close up work.However,keeping all I have said,I would prefer #2 over 7 1/2.
    Sorry for the correction.It was #9 Birdshot that was used.See it's not east getting old and forgetful.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2008
  21. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Senior Member

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    Key words...........
     
  22. rbernie

    rbernie Senior Member

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    When I shoot at someone, I am not trying to deter them. I'm well past that stage. My locked doors, alarms, dogs, and verbal commands were all designed to deter them. If they're still hanging around after all that, I'm now trying to STOP them from whatever they're doing because they are clearly up to no good and are highly motivated.

    Lemme reiterate that - when I finally make the decision to pull the trigger on another human being, it's after I've exhausted all of the reasonable alternative for avoidance and deterrence. All I care about at that point is that they STOP THE HECK outta whatever they were doing.

    A load of birdshot across the room is less likely to make that happen than is a more potent load. Brassfetcher's test data should show you exactly why.

    I, and most others, are simply not willing to play the odds.

    Only if you happen to hit a major blood-carrying vessel. Given that the human body tends to put the critical blood-carryin' structures behind a shielding of bone, your defensive loading ought to be capable of penetrating through those bones. Anything less is simply trusting your fate to blind luck.
     
  23. waterhouse

    waterhouse Senior Member

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    I have no medical training. Although it might sound rhetorical, I'd like a real answer to the following question, hopefully from someone with medical training.

    At a distance of 2 feet, shot in the gut, how did pellets make it to the neck area and also the ankle? Were these #9 pellets somehow traveling through the blood to get where they ended up? And if so, wouldn't this imply that the guy still had blood pumping to both his head and his farthest extremities (Ok, not quite to his toes, but his ankle) for some time after being shot?
     
  24. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

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    #9 pellets travelling

    According to the Doctor,the pellets bounced around after hitting bones.If I didn't see the xrays I would not have believed it myself.Even the cardboard wad was inside the guy.
     
  25. Okiecruffler

    Okiecruffler Senior Member

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    You'd be surprised at the paths that a bullet (or shot) will travel. Bones, even the shape of the projectile itself, can send the pellets in some strange directions. Saw one shooting with 20 ga 7 1/2 shot. Perp DOA in one room, shooter in another with 3 pellets stuck in his face. Had to have bounced off of something.
    As for me, I'm tired of debating what to carry/load for SD/Hunting/Plinking. I'll base my choices on what I've seen in the real world, everyone else can base their's on what they wish.
     

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