Ballistic gelatin test results - Buffalo Bore 158gr (non +P) SWC-HC
- Thread starter Brass Fetcher
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Maybe you guys can explain something to me. First, I don't know how we can get "something for nothing", i.e. more speed, less pressure. Second, I have always believed that the problem with Plus P in the airweights was not only the pressure (back thrust) but the recoil of the more powerful/heavy round which would "stretch" the frame. After all, the cylinder in the airweight is the same strength as the cylinder in the model 36 or 60. If the BB load is getting that much speed, regardless of pressure, would it not exert an equal force backwards against the recoil shield, thereby increasing the chance of frame stretch? Believe me, as soon I am convinced std pressure BB is OK for my older-style J-frames, I'll buy some but I gotta try to understand what is going on.
ugaarguy
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Pressure is measured at its peak. As I understand it; by using newer advanced powders you have a lower peak pressure, but you maintain that peak pressure for a longer duration. I believe the old loads, if the pressure was graphed, would rise quickly to a peak and then drop with equal speed, like hill or mountain. The new loads would rise, hold, and then drop off, like a plateau. That is my very basic understanding of the concept. Mr. Sundles please correct whatever I screwed up in that explanation.
JE223 - The usual Achilles heal of low velocity handgun bullets is expansion after clothing. I greatly appreciate you sharing this info with us. However, I think it could be more useful if you used the now standard "4 layer denim" test. From what I have seen bullets that fragment through bare gel actually do very well through covered gel.
Anyway, just curious why you have chosen bare gel?
Anyway, just curious why you have chosen bare gel?
AStone
Member
Respectfully tiptoeing in among giants here.
Reading to learn what to carry in the revolver on my right side ... (see below)
JE, great work.
(Images remind me of those emerging from
quantum physics experiments in bubble chambers.)
Buff-Bore/Sundles: Keep it up. Evolution in action.
Yeah; that's what I'm talking about (see above).
Nem
Reading to learn what to carry in the revolver on my right side ... (see below)
JE, great work.
(Images remind me of those emerging from
quantum physics experiments in bubble chambers.)
Buff-Bore/Sundles: Keep it up. Evolution in action.
<Cheers from the 642 crowd>
Yeah; that's what I'm talking about (see above).
Nem
fiVe
Member
What a great thread! So much concrete info! Thanks to all who contributed.
PaladinX13
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- 747
JE223, awesome test, thanks! Is there one in the pipe for the new Buffalo Bore very hardcast full wadcutters?
Very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet — 868 fps
Very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet — 868 fps
MassMark
Member
Awesome information - Thank You. Could I be the first to request a sticky for all of JE223's ballistic tests, or even a sub forum?
Jim March
Member
I second a sticky-link to John's site. Several, on several forums.
John's latest thing is, on each page at brassfetcher where a load is described, he also links to the THR forum thread where it's discussed. So no separate forum is needed, rather brassfetcher is already becoming "interwoven" with THR.
Now all we need are stickies. I'll try and work with the mods on that....
John's latest thing is, on each page at brassfetcher where a load is described, he also links to the THR forum thread where it's discussed. So no separate forum is needed, rather brassfetcher is already becoming "interwoven" with THR.
Now all we need are stickies. I'll try and work with the mods on that....
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
@DBR - Bare gelatin was chosen because it is the industry standard. The addition of denim fabric evaluates a bullets general ability to defeat heavy winter clothing and is quite useful for giving an idea of a bullets expected performance.
@PaladinX13 - Yes, the BB 150gr full wadcutter is the next to be tested. I have a test tomorrow, where the shooter will be bringing a 4" revolver and (I believe) shooting 1 each of the Buffalo Bore 125gr +P and 158gr +P... but the WCs will require three blocks to capture the entire path - that is why they were not tested earlier this week.
@MODS! I am still very excited about the sticky idea. I do have links to the specific THR threads with the gelatin results, on the appropriate pages on my website. Right now, I have one link to THR on the .38Spec page and almost all of the .17HMR and .22lrs pages done.
@PaladinX13 - Yes, the BB 150gr full wadcutter is the next to be tested. I have a test tomorrow, where the shooter will be bringing a 4" revolver and (I believe) shooting 1 each of the Buffalo Bore 125gr +P and 158gr +P... but the WCs will require three blocks to capture the entire path - that is why they were not tested earlier this week.
@MODS!
I am still very excited about the sticky idea. I do have links to the specific THR threads with the gelatin results, on the appropriate pages on my website. Right now, I have one link to THR on the .38Spec page and almost all of the .17HMR and .22lrs pages done.LawofThirds
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- Apr 19, 2008
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- 474
I'm guessing he means the gas check.
And I love the heavy 158g +p loading out of my 2.5" k frame and 2" 442 powerport. Not too much snap, very easy to keep on target and an honest 1000+ fps out of both of them.
Buffalo bore has become my one and only for self defense out of a revolver.
And I love the heavy 158g +p loading out of my 2.5" k frame and 2" 442 powerport. Not too much snap, very easy to keep on target and an honest 1000+ fps out of both of them.
Buffalo bore has become my one and only for self defense out of a revolver.
Where-as the original specs of .38 Special in 1898, were 158 Grn RNL, 3f BP propellent, Baloon Head Case, 950 fps, out of a 6 in Barrel...I think the charge was 21.5 Grains BP.
I have tried to duplicate this, but the modern Cases do not hold as much Powder even with very forceful compression...plus I was using a roughly .040 thick Lube-Wafer under the Bullet. I was getting low 9s in a 90 year old 6 inch Barrel Colt Army Special with Chronograph set up at ten yards from Muzzle...on 20.5 Grains hard compression.
Have not chrono'd 158-BP loadings in my two Inch S&W M&P Snubby yet...but, I would guess they will be in the low 6s.
I bought some Buffalo Bore...tried one round through the Chrono at ten yards, and, if I remember right, it was mid eights out of a 3 inch Model 10 S&W.
I have not miked the Cylinder Throats on it yet...been meaning to.
Been meaning to try and mike the BB Bullet also.
Eventually - for at least one or two Revolvers - I hope to both have uniform Cylinder Throats, a right-shaped Forcing Cone for Lead, and, to elect Bullet Diameters for moderately soft Lead-Tin Bullets, and for them to be about .002 or possibly .003 Larger than the Bore.
This then I expect will allow me the optimum fps for any given Lead Bullet loading...and, alleviate much of the so-far vagueries or fps spread I find in even quite careful uniform Cartridge Loadings through the Chronograph.
Anyone know what the actual diameter of the BB Bullets are?
I have tried to duplicate this, but the modern Cases do not hold as much Powder even with very forceful compression...plus I was using a roughly .040 thick Lube-Wafer under the Bullet. I was getting low 9s in a 90 year old 6 inch Barrel Colt Army Special with Chronograph set up at ten yards from Muzzle...on 20.5 Grains hard compression.
Have not chrono'd 158-BP loadings in my two Inch S&W M&P Snubby yet...but, I would guess they will be in the low 6s.
I bought some Buffalo Bore...tried one round through the Chrono at ten yards, and, if I remember right, it was mid eights out of a 3 inch Model 10 S&W.
I have not miked the Cylinder Throats on it yet...been meaning to.
Been meaning to try and mike the BB Bullet also.
Eventually - for at least one or two Revolvers - I hope to both have uniform Cylinder Throats, a right-shaped Forcing Cone for Lead, and, to elect Bullet Diameters for moderately soft Lead-Tin Bullets, and for them to be about .002 or possibly .003 Larger than the Bore.
This then I expect will allow me the optimum fps for any given Lead Bullet loading...and, alleviate much of the so-far vagueries or fps spread I find in even quite careful uniform Cartridge Loadings through the Chronograph.
Anyone know what the actual diameter of the BB Bullets are?
Last edited:
rdrancher
Member
Dredging up an old post for sure...but a good one too. If you want to take a closer look at a completely non-scientific review of the round and the +P version, follow the link in my sig.
BTW - IMHO, felt recoil of the standard pressure round from my 642 is much less than that of the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr.
rd
BTW - IMHO, felt recoil of the standard pressure round from my 642 is much less than that of the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr.
rd
Oyeboten, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here in any way at all. You are correct about the powder charge weight being 21.5gr, however the 3F is refereing to FFFG Black Powder. FFFG is a lot finer in grain size as compared to FFG which commonly used in the larger BPC (Black Powder Cartridges) of the day. The ammo companies probably had to go with FFFG because 21.5gr of FFG would not fit into the .38 SPL case. Also I just got done reading a very interesting article about reloading the .45 Colt with the original 40gr charge of BP. You can most certainly get the full charge weight of the powder into modern day brass. What you will have to do however is order an special compression die that fits into your expanding die. IIRC you can order this from http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,150.html For what it is woth the author found that the 40gr charge was less accurate than his 35gr charge and only produced like 20 fps more when shot through his 7 1/2" revolver.
Black powder unlike smokeless will be just fine with compression. However it is not alright to leave air space between it and the bullet unlike some smokeless powders such as Bulls Eye. Also there is no need for a lube wafer jujst use a BP rated bullet lube which will do plenty to soften the BP fouling. BTW what Buffalo Bore ammo is it that you tried? The +P version or the Non +P version?
Also Buffalo Bore buys their bullets for the 158gr LSWCHPGC loadings from here they are the one and the same.
http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=74
Black powder unlike smokeless will be just fine with compression. However it is not alright to leave air space between it and the bullet unlike some smokeless powders such as Bulls Eye. Also there is no need for a lube wafer jujst use a BP rated bullet lube which will do plenty to soften the BP fouling. BTW what Buffalo Bore ammo is it that you tried? The +P version or the Non +P version?
Also Buffalo Bore buys their bullets for the 158gr LSWCHPGC loadings from here they are the one and the same.
http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=74
Hi 336A,
Thank you...
I was just trying to supply an addenda to Old Fuff's reply in which he had outlined Standard .38 Special 'Police Loads' of pre-War vintage...since, these were generally not as spunky as the original Loading had been...and, many of to-day's Standard Loadings of off-the-shelf 158 Grn RNL are not quite as spunky as the 1930s-1940s 'Police Loads' had been.
Hence, my 'where-as' lead in...( sorry if I had appeared to be out of continuity there...the 'where-as' was in reference as addenda to Old Fuff's mention, and not in reference to the BB Cartridges. )
Yes...I understand it is tacit, that when refering to traditional BP Hand Gun Cartridges, that BP would mean "3F".
I have a Lyman Tru-Line Junior Press, where, there are limits to how hard I will feel good to depress the Lever.
I have also a 'EZY-Loader', which would allow enormous pressure to be realized for it's vastly more robust build, and, this, probably, would allow me a 21.5 Grain 3F BP under a 158 Grain Bullet in .38 Special.
Whether your acquaintance's .45 Colt experiments showed less accuracy with a full charge of Powder, or, was implying issues of Cylinder Throats, Forcing Cone and Bore to Bullet fit, I don't know...
A different revolver may have had differing results.
Original .45 Colt BP Loadings, in a 7-1/2 inch Barrel, I think were over 1000 fps with 250-ish Grain RNL.
I used the ( Home made ) Lube Wafers simply because my Lubrisizer was not set up yet, and, I wanted easy cleaning and sure Bullet Lube for the Bore. I have been very pleased with them in Cap and Ball.
Once I have the Lubrisizer the rest of the way set up...I may elect to use the Bullet's Lube Grooves and forsake the Lube Wafer.
when seeking maximun BP Charges.
As for my personal Daily Carry, being a 3 inch S&W Model 10-6...I elected to carry the 'Buffalo Bore' Cartridge, of which I had bought a couple of boxes quite awhile back.
These are not the +P version, though I suppose the Model 10 would abide the +P alright, if they were.
I might send off for a couple of Boxes of the +P also...try a few through the Chrono...and elect to carry them.
My Hat is definitely off to Buffalo Bore, for producing and offering such a unique and inviting Cartridge...and for their time and trouble to have developed it.
If one carries a short Barrel .38 Special, it seems to me that the BB Cartridge would be a first choice for all round Carry.
Thank you...
I was just trying to supply an addenda to Old Fuff's reply in which he had outlined Standard .38 Special 'Police Loads' of pre-War vintage...since, these were generally not as spunky as the original Loading had been...and, many of to-day's Standard Loadings of off-the-shelf 158 Grn RNL are not quite as spunky as the 1930s-1940s 'Police Loads' had been.
Hence, my 'where-as' lead in...( sorry if I had appeared to be out of continuity there...the 'where-as' was in reference as addenda to Old Fuff's mention, and not in reference to the BB Cartridges. )
Yes...I understand it is tacit, that when refering to traditional BP Hand Gun Cartridges, that BP would mean "3F".
I have a Lyman Tru-Line Junior Press, where, there are limits to how hard I will feel good to depress the Lever.
I have also a 'EZY-Loader', which would allow enormous pressure to be realized for it's vastly more robust build, and, this, probably, would allow me a 21.5 Grain 3F BP under a 158 Grain Bullet in .38 Special.
Whether your acquaintance's .45 Colt experiments showed less accuracy with a full charge of Powder, or, was implying issues of Cylinder Throats, Forcing Cone and Bore to Bullet fit, I don't know...
A different revolver may have had differing results.
Original .45 Colt BP Loadings, in a 7-1/2 inch Barrel, I think were over 1000 fps with 250-ish Grain RNL.
I used the ( Home made ) Lube Wafers simply because my Lubrisizer was not set up yet, and, I wanted easy cleaning and sure Bullet Lube for the Bore. I have been very pleased with them in Cap and Ball.
Once I have the Lubrisizer the rest of the way set up...I may elect to use the Bullet's Lube Grooves and forsake the Lube Wafer.
when seeking maximun BP Charges.
As for my personal Daily Carry, being a 3 inch S&W Model 10-6...I elected to carry the 'Buffalo Bore' Cartridge, of which I had bought a couple of boxes quite awhile back.
These are not the +P version, though I suppose the Model 10 would abide the +P alright, if they were.
I might send off for a couple of Boxes of the +P also...try a few through the Chrono...and elect to carry them.
My Hat is definitely off to Buffalo Bore, for producing and offering such a unique and inviting Cartridge...and for their time and trouble to have developed it.
If one carries a short Barrel .38 Special, it seems to me that the BB Cartridge would be a first choice for all round Carry.
Tinman357
Member
Sundles
I got lucky.. Maybe it was the micrometer that I take to gun shops with me.
I just got a Ruger NM Blackhawk .45 that has mic'ed out to be a perfect .450 throats with a nicely done forcing cone. Slugged and measured at the grooves, measures out at .449 at the cone and .448 at the muzzle. The thing should be an accurate shooter. It must have been a good day at the factory. The tolerances finally stacked in my favor for once.
Dropped in a powers custom bisley hammer/trigger, and a belt mtn base pin, But, The darned thing came with an aluminum frame.
Looking at getting a Keith #5 to replace the bud light can.
I'd love a set of sambar stag grips for it but I'll make a set from a Elk I took a few years ago.
I got lucky.. Maybe it was the micrometer that I take to gun shops with me.
I just got a Ruger NM Blackhawk .45 that has mic'ed out to be a perfect .450 throats with a nicely done forcing cone. Slugged and measured at the grooves, measures out at .449 at the cone and .448 at the muzzle. The thing should be an accurate shooter. It must have been a good day at the factory. The tolerances finally stacked in my favor for once.
Dropped in a powers custom bisley hammer/trigger, and a belt mtn base pin, But, The darned thing came with an aluminum frame.
Looking at getting a Keith #5 to replace the bud light can. I'd love a set of sambar stag grips for it but I'll make a set from a Elk I took a few years ago.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
My fault. "Segments from the hollowpoint cavity".
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