Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Bass Pro Shop trip: Modern day guns look so cheap

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by trbon8r, Apr 28, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    MD
    The wife and I took a trip by Bass Pro Shops today. I wanted to ogle some of the sporting type guns to see if they had anything interesting. I'm sorry, but the modern made hunting and sporting type guns just keep sliding further into the toilet. Things like plastic looking wood with cheapo stamped checkering, dull blueing with no polish at all, terrible wood to metal fit, just totally turned me off.

    Geez, I looked at the nicest Beretta over/under they had which was marked at $4500. What a ripoff. The wood/metal fit wasn't even close. The blueing sucked. The workmanship would have been unacceptable to me on a gun at half the price. Some of the more mainstream guns like Remington, Ruger, Browning, were even worse.

    Keep in mind I'm not talking about military type guns, or handguns. I'm speaking specifically about hunting type guns. The quality on these types of guns really is in the crapper these days. Might as well just buy an AR, M1A, or something else that doesn't even pretend to be pretty. They are built better, and for less money than the others. Either that or stick to older stuff like vintage Belgian Brownings, Pre-64 Winchesters, etc. back when they took the time to polish metal, and cut real checkering on nice figured wood.

    My Belgian Auto 5s look way better than the newer stuff. Likewise, my old Remington 1100 looked nicer that its modern day Remington counterparts. It just seems like on the modern guns there is no corner left uncut.
     
  2. bluetopper

    bluetopper Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,219
    Location:
    Northeast TX
    I could not agree with you more!!!

    During the last year I've started collecting vintage High Standard .22 pistols and they are a world away from today's pot metal and plastic 22's that are currently on the market.
     
  3. Sigdude

    Sigdude Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    96
    I was there also....

    the one at Arundel Mills in Elkridge.
    They have alot of those cheap Remington economy line bolt action rifles with the cheap Bushnell scopes on them.Iwas turned-off also.:uhoh:
     
  4. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    2,728
    Location:
    SC
    Yep. Every manufactorer has to pay higher costs to make a product. Labor, insurance, taxes, etc. are all very high. Ever notice how new cars are junk? It is the same reasons as new guns are crap.

    Not only labor costs, but I guess that liablity also plays a big role in the cost of guns. I know that it is true with aircraft. A new Cessna easily costs $300,000. Most of that price is liablity, because every time someone crashes, the family sues the manufactorer. :barf:

    Of course, this just makes the prices higher and the quality lower for the rest of us. :cuss:
     
  5. -terry

    -terry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    344
    Location:
    WA, Bellingham
    Avenger,
    I don't know about you're experience, but my new car isn't junk. I've got an Audi TT that is simply magnificent! Efficient, reliable, attractive and beautifully styled and constructed.

    My Browning Buckmark is the same, as is my CZ 75B. Great quality, reliability, ergonomics, and reasonable price.

    I just don't see the "don't make 'em like they used to" comment. For me, I'm thankful that they don't.

    Don't know anything about hunting arms, however. Maybe for them, it's true.
     
  6. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,777
    Location:
    Transient
    agreed.

    i have pre-64 win 70's, 99 savages, ithaca 2-pipers, and old ruger rifles... i gotta tell you, those guns would be hard pressed to hit a 50's buick roadmaster at 50 yards, let alone punch out moa and better groups at 300 yards w/ ease.

    don't make 'em like they used? thank all that is holy for that!

    as a caveat: i'm not much into shotguns, so have nothing to offer one way or another re: shotguns at any price point... i have an 870, it works on the rare occasion i need it to, i'm ok w/ that.
     
  7. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,773
    Location:
    Illinois`
    I think your assessment is based on aesthetics rather than facts.
    As a machinist and gunsmith I find modern guns to be better made of better steel and featuring much more durable and weather resistent finishes than any sporting firearm placed on the market in the last thirty years.

    The woods offered today are admittably not of the same grade available forty years ago yet modern plastics are far more durable and technology is becoming available that in time will be able to reproduce the beautiful patterns, grain, and color of ancient walnut in a stock that is all but indestructable.

    The modern caustic bluing will never approach the color quality of a properly applied rust or Belgian blue but it will remain on the metal surface fifty times longer than the ancient methods and is far easier to to maintain.

    If there is a real lack in quality in modern firearms I will venture to say that modern checkering on a productin line firearm does not, and probably never will, rival the artistic mastery of the old school shop workers.

    There are some true to the trade modern stockmasters who can produce far better works than the shop workers of old, but you will not find this level of talent on a wallyworld sale special.
     
  8. .cheese.

    .cheese. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,808
    Might also have something to do with Bass-Pro.

    I'm not a fan of their gun-selection.... and their prices aren't that good either.

    I used to buy some ammo through them.... but after they royally *twisted* me - all I ever buy there is Break-Free when the local gun-store is out.
     
  9. Davo

    Davo Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,126
    Location:
    Riverside County, **********
    One is coming to SoCal, and I saw one going up in Vegas. I wonder if the Kali ones will even sell firearms.
     
  10. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    MD
    I knew there would be some folks that would chime in and mention that today's rifles actually shoot better. I definitely agree, as far as accuracy goes today's rifles are better. Barrel making technology has surpassed anything that was dreamed of in the 1950s.

    Instead I'm talking about aesthetics. It's about enjoying a Saturday afternoon with a gun that was made with pride, has some hand fitting, polished blueing, and a nice oil finished stock. Basically I like reveling in the workmanship of what I'm shooting as much as the accuracy.

    While today's rifles might shoot better, we have lost the aesthetic part in search of the cheap buck. I don't think it's too much to ask to have both. Before anyone says that shooters won't pay the price for hand fitting, polished blueing, and hand checkering, I would disagree. Granted the average guy that wants to kill a couple deer every season won't pay the money, but there are a lot of guys that punch paper, maybe even guys that head into the woods once in a blue moon that enjoy having a rifle that is put together right. They will pay the $1500 or $2000 for a top notch rifle.

    I wasn't alive in the 1950s but I would be surprised if a modern day Winchester Model 70 would cost more than a couple thousand bucks using today's technology and yesterday's workmanship.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2007
  11. BADUNAME13

    BADUNAME13 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,802
    Location:
    Gulf Coast
    trbon8r: There are gunmakers who fill that gap... And you can spend even MORE $!;)
     
  12. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    8,056
    Location:
    United Socialist States of Obama
    Liability should be a non-issue, since the gun maker lawsuit protection act was passed, but of course, no savings was passed on to the consumer when gun maker liability decreased.

    Thats probably true, but the market for a $2,000 rifle that does nothing that a $400 rifle can't do is very small. Have you considered looking at semi-custom rifles by manufacturers like Cooper Arms? They use some of the most beautiful wood I have ever seen on rifles. The only problem is, they are so pretty you don't want to mess them up by hunting with them.
     
  13. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    MD
    I've looked at the Coopers, well pictures anyway. :) They look like top notch rifles. In fact I priced out one of the new Cooper Model 52 repeaters. It sure looks like a nice rifle! Cooper certainly fills a niche for a semi-custom type rifle, and good on them for doing that!

    The trouble is when you price out a new Cooper Model 52 and fill out the option sheet, you are looking at $3000+. I'm sure it's an incredible gun, and they look real nice.

    What I'm asking is, why can't an American manufacturer make a top notch rifle in the sub $2000 range? I want to pay for quality, and if 2k is the price break then so be it. I just feel like if the formerly defunct Winchester, or modern day Remington were to make a top notch rifle in the $1500 to $2000 range with nice wood, polished blue, top quality barrel, and all the things that a rifleman expects, they would sell as many as they can make.

    The average Winchester or Remington is in the $600-700 range. How about doubling the price and putting some fit and finish on the guns? Maybe they won't be custom worthy, but they might be something that would rival a Pre 64 Model 70. :) They wouldn't even have to make all the rifles this way. How about a "Premium" line that comes from the custom shop that offers a little more than plastic wood, and the rest of the myriad of defects?
     
  14. Notch

    Notch Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Stocks were meant t be wood...God says so...
     
  15. telomerase

    telomerase Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,205
    Location:
    The bear-infested hills of Grafton NH
    Ah, for the good old days, when there was no stainless steel or synthetics. Then a real man could go out into the Texas swamps and know that his gun would rust overnight and the wood would warp within a week :uhoh: .

    If it works it's pretty :D
     
  16. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,266
    Location:
    Washington
    Good figured wood will cost you exponentially more as time goes on. Firearms that use this stuff are competing with high dollar furniture and high dollar musical instruments. Exotic hardwoods only grow so fast; some trees take several hundred years to mature. Figured wood sections also only make up a small fraction of the overall wood obtained from a particular hardwood tree (usually less than 5%) and have various grades, so getting AAA+ grade figured wood,the the cream of the crop, is hard to come by as a lot of industries are competing for it.

    As demand goes up, supply must rise as well. You simply aren't going to find as large a selection of handmade stuff without ultra premium prices. Most people simply cannot justify that anymore when the market offers a funtional firearm at a much lower pricepoint and you have widespread competition. Most industry is geared for mass production instead of small quantity runs. If every single gun was handmade today, we'd have big problems because it'd be impossible for supply to meet demand (and quality control would actually be lower).

    Rifles, pocketwatches, and things like that a century ago were very expensive and people had to save their money for quite some time (sometimes many years) before they could purchase a fine example. Today, you can get a funtional firearm without the lipstick with one or two paychecks.

    The market is changing and the market probably doesn't bear enough demand for these types of firearms in enough volume to make a healthy profit for the company. Tie together the fact that skilled craftsmen are being pushed aside for automation and mechanization, along with natural resources (good wood), and you have several factors that can be partially responsible for this trend.
     
  17. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    MD
    Ah the "good 'ole new days"; where an American can stop off at Wal Mart, and pick up a thrown together plastic stocked Model 700 junker put together with plastic, aluminum, pot metal, and a prayer if you are lucky. Toss the new rifle in the back of your Mexico assembled Dodge truck and buy a Starbucks $5 coffee in the China Mart shopping center, on the way to your favorite hunting stand. Boy that is American!!!

    Ain't the new days just grand? :barf: I'm so glad that things are "efficient" and that the bottom line is king these days. ;) The fact is, most gun guys would be ashamed to leave a modern day hunting gun to their grandchildren. Then again I guess we can be comforted in the fact that the modern gun is the most "efficient" tool. Ugh..... :barf:
     
  18. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    MD
    double post......... delete
     
  19. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2007
    Messages:
    4,039
    No, they don't make guns like they used to. All made on cnc machines for minimal fitting (if at all) and plastic where ever they can get away with it. I keep looking for another, but can't find anything that pleases me. Quality control for s & w is just out to lunch. Check their b/c gaps on their revolvers. Their standard is .011. That's what they told me about 10 years ago. Now look at the b/c gap on a tarus or rossi. They are usualy pretty tight as they should be.
     
  20. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,266
    Location:
    Washington
    CNC requires minimal fitting because it's consistent :rolleyes:

    Properly programmed and tooled CNCs will be making parts with dimensional repeatability to tenth accuracy (0.0001") all day. That's 1/40th the thickness of a piece of paper . Grind operations can push repeatability under 50 millionths (0.00005") and I won't even touch on the insane accuracy of CMM machines that do QC.

    If a company today in mass manufacturing is failing to make good products, its because they are trading off quality for quantity or trying to balance their cost-to-profit ratio. Technology today far exceeds anything we had 100, or even 50 years ago despite how nostalgic you want to be. Blame the way the company is run and what their goals are, not "evil CNC", because CNC will run circles around most anything done by hand.

    People unfamiliar with computer numerically controlled technology have some crazy idea that CNCs are some evil thing that pumps out junk and can't match a human being. I work with CNC technology for a living. If you feel better flying on a handmade plane or driving a handmade car, by all means, go ahead. I'm not even going to address the technological advances we've made in ferrous and non-ferrous metals.

    Good figured wood is available even though supply is dwindling. Just let me know if you want to pay hundreds to thousands of dollars extra for the premium chunks of wood. I didn't think so, and many people won't, and as a result, more synthetics are being used because exotic hardwood supplies are drying up and prices are skyrocketing. Exotic wood prices are going the way of ivory, and at this pace, they will eventually ban exotic wood harvesting before it's all gone.
     
  21. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2005
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    MD
    I'm certainly not saying that CNC is the devil. In fact I'm saying why not integrate CNC technology into modern firearms production, while still keeping some hand fitting and quality wood in the process?

    I guess I don't understand why modern technology and some hand fitting, as in days gone by can't still be integrated together.

    Cesiumsponge,

    To anwser your question, YES I want to pay a few hundred bucks extra for nice wood.
     
  22. Snap

    Snap Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    130
    Avenger29- I've heard that fully 60% of the cost of a brand new Cessna airplane is to pay for product liability. What do you suppose the ratio is on guns? Some days I really think we need to close about half the law schools in the country and cut down on the problem. Probably wouldn't help much though.
     
  23. telomerase

    telomerase Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,205
    Location:
    The bear-infested hills of Grafton NH
    Or go to a gun shop and get a Sako, or a CZ, or a Browning, or ten other makers that make really good products. (i.e. I agree about Wal-Mart, but there isn't actually a law that you have to shop in the worst store :D )
     
  24. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,266
    Location:
    Washington
    I bet the other 40% of the cost at Cessna goes towards grossly overengineered parts. I've worked on some Cessna components before. :banghead: Better than under-engineered I suppose.
     
  25. Doggy Daddy

    Doggy Daddy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Amazing how on a single website, you can go from one thread where a member is lamenting the fact that he'll have to cut back on his practice time because the price of ammo has gone up a couple of bucks to another thread where people are complaining that they can't find guns that are elite enough for their tastes.

    I understand what you guys are saying, and I admit that I don't know you from Adam. I also admit that I personally have all I need, and then some - I'm blessed. But I have to wonder if you ever step back and look at what you've typed before you hit the "Post Reply" button. Sometimes it just doesn't paint either you or the community in a flattering shade.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page