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BATF violated federal law by creating a database of private gun ownership

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Aug 3, 2016.

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  1. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Let's go back to the basics:

    - Is there federal law prohibiting generation of such a database ?
    - Did the BATF create such a database ?
    - Did the BATF violate federal law in so doing ?
    - And if they did so in violation the Appropriation act, are they "deficient" for the money spent in the legal parlance ?



    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
  2. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    At face value this statement is true. But few are listening to the complete argument on any subject including gun control. Only the detail oriented folks pay attention to such things and they are a huge minority in my experience. People in general think in terms of tweet length thoughts. The complete story seldom gets any air time. So, the "facts" that are presented are selective often on both sides of the 2A issue.

    So as mentioned, did the BATFE violate federal law? Yes
    Was it intentional? Probably
    Is there political pressure to create a registry or data base? No question in my opinion.
     
  3. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I really do wish people would stop "reporting" bias slanted junk like the article in the OP, so that "their side" will buy it hook line and sinker. Both "sides" do this. And no, we shouldn't be doing it.
     
  4. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    If someone hasn't already done so, I'd like to point out that they audited 4 systems and that 2 out of the 4 systems were not in compliance.

    That is a 50% pass/rate. :what:




    The following, although worded a little different, IMO supports a "Yes" answer to all four of your questions


    You could also throw in that that violated the Antideficiency Act per the GAO's conclusion.



    http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/678091.pdf
    Starting on pdf page 95



     
  5. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    Good lord, Frank. We all know you're crass, but this is as close as even a lawyer can get to an ad hom/personal attack whilst staying just this side of the rules you're tasked with enforcing as a mod. Maybe check yourself.
     
  6. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    I guess you don't know the meaning of ad hominem:

    I did not attack barnbwt personally or bring up any irrelevant fact about him or his character.

    Rather I characterized his comments as adding nothing of substance to the discussion, but as merely reflecting his bitterness (bile) and sourness or anger (spleen).

    barnbwt's comments to which I was referring were essentially just rants -- setting out no facts or evidence supporting those facts.
     
  7. SuperNaut

    SuperNaut Member

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    This is weird thread to want to win.
     
  8. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not a question of winning or losing a thread (and it really never should be).

    Issues relating to possible overreaching of a regulatory agency and issues relating to application and enforcement of firearms laws are serious matters. As advocates for the RKBA, we need to understand those issues. Understand those issues can help us in our discussions with persons who aren't yet fully committed to either side of the RKBA question. It can also help us consider ways to advance our interests -- either politically or through thoughtful litigation.

    But for that understanding to truly be helpful to us in that way it needs to be based on facts for which we have evidentiary support. And we need to be able to distinguish between evidence based facts and useless judgements "...distorted by the tendency to rely on personal anecdotes, small samples, easily available data, and faulty interpretation of statistics."

    And by the way, perhaps the best source of facts which probably can not be disputed is the GAO audit report which is the subject of this thread. So the place to start is that report -- reading it, understanding it, and looking for rigorous ways in which the GAO's own findings could help our further our interests.

    In fact, that's the approach danez71 took in post 29. If this thread has a winner it's him.
     
  9. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    This isn't court - it's the court of public opinion. Different set of rules entirely.

    When playing the devil's advocate for rigorous examination, the balancing act is to not paint oneself as the devil so well that your audience loses all respect.
     
  10. Warp

    Warp Member

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    'We' should not stoop to intentionally misleading, deceiving, or jumping to our own predetermined bias conclusions, just because we aren't going to be held to standard by a judge or jury based on facts/legitimate evidence

    In other words, why is it an entirely different set of rules and why do you think it should be an entirely different set of rules?
     
  11. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I agree with Tirod.
    There may be nothing provable in court, but it is just another nail in the coffin of public trust in government.
     
  12. sarge83

    sarge83 Member

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    At this point I take everything the US government says with a grain of salt. It is so corrupt and criminal it rivals the Byzantine empire from a thousand years ago.

    If someone comes to me and says I work for the government at any level and tells me something I automatically assume it is a lie. It is always they are telling a whopper unless I can verify it is not. They have so lowered themselves in the eyes of the public.

    Could the GAO be lying yes. Does the ATF lie and break the law, does a bear crap in the woods? ATF, IRS, NSA, FBI, EPA, they make the law up as they go along.
     
  13. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    LOL!

    I didn't know you could "win" a thread..... We should start keeping score.

    As far as the article goes, it sounds like some facts are wrong and/or skewed. The purpose of the GAO is to ensure proper use of taxpayer dollars. When they audited the BATF and found they were not always in compliance with federal law, they reported it, as expected, and that makes sense as it would be a misuse of taxpayer dollars.

    So someone at the BATF screwed up (seems unlikely), or made a willful decision to do something illegal. Until an investigation is done, and a cause is identified, we are assuming an awful lot.

    At this point I see that one government agency screwed up, be it willful or not, and another that was designed to catch screw ups, did in fact catch it. So....... when you think about it, the system worked. Go us!!!!

    It just seems to me we need more facts before we start getting riled up and pissed off at the government. We have plenty of other stuff to be pissed at them for already that we do have evidence of.
     
  14. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I mean no offense, but that isn't really relevant. I'm no statistician, but think about the context of what you said. If they had audited one system and found it in compliance, that would be a 100% pass rate.

    I agree, any noncompliance with federal law is a major no no, but a percentage being mentioned with such a small sample means very little.

    If I speed for one mile out of 100, and you sample my compliance with state traffic laws on that one mile, I would have a 0% compliance rate, which sounds terrible. If you look at the entire trip, I only sped 1% of the time, which sounds awesome.

    "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" MT
     
  15. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Personally I find it very distressing that so many people are so anxious to believe things that might not be true -- and worse, to act on things that might not be true. Why are people so willing to embrace intentional ignorance?
     
  16. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Honestly I think it's fear. People are worried sick about losing their personal liberties, on both sides of the political fence, and it has made them defensive. Loud obnoxious candidates and a media that skews facts and reporting has made everyone edgy.

    When people get edgy and worry for too long, fears grow into substantial threats in people's minds, and mob mentality takes over.

    I am inclined towards paranoia, and do believe we have enough corruption in the government that secret agendas are a threat to our rights. However, I have so little faith in the accuracy of the media to report facts that I refuse to jump on the immediate "screw the government" bandwagon.
     
  17. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, certainly a lot of folks who oppose the RKBA are afraid of guns and people who have guns. They are content to believe things that aren't true about guns and people who have guns -- and to act on their ignorance.
     
  18. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I think one big factor is the public pronouncements by government officials, candidates for office, and other influential parties of what they PLAN to do and would LIKE to do.
     
  19. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    And you, who so distrusts the government and government officials, believe them then?

    It all comes down to simply believing what you want to believe -- without regard to whether it is true or not -- without regard for evidence.

    All that gets you is a chronic case of confirmation bias:

    1. Confirmation bias:

    2. Confirmation bias:
     
  20. Bkbear1

    Bkbear1 Member

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    Well Frank, since your from ************ and probably voted for the 2A hating Democrat politicians in your states I find your apologist answers for the most corrupt goobermint agency in Washington District of Corruption to be less than credible on its face. Are you paid by BATFE to discredit all those who out them for breaking the laws they are supposed to uphold???????
    I find your lack of faith troubling, in itsa adherence to supporting a rogue agency who may have participated in gun running to subvert the Second Amendment as well as complicity in numerous murders tied to guns they supplied to the cartels.
     
  21. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    I've left this post up and am pointing it out primarily for the benefit of MachIVshooter. Here we have a classic example of the true ad hominem fallacy.

    Bkbear1 is attacking my arguments solely on the basis that I live in California. (And he's making assumptions about for whom I voted without a shred of evidence.)

    Beyond that I see no reason to comment on Bkbear1's drivel.
     
  22. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    My benefit? Please. Again, you're behaving like a lawyer and dancing around technicalities. That works in the courtroom. Everywhere else, the intent/inflection behind the words is just as important as the words used.

    Ad hom is the assailing of one's character in an attempt to discredit their argument. Just because you make the particulars of the assault sorta relevant and don't exactly call the other person a poopyhead doesn't change that.

    To that end, I would point out that your vitriolic responses don't make people apt to listen. A fair number of members have already indicated that their ears are closed. Not because you don't know what you're talking about, but because your delivery is often very offensive. Catch more flies with honey and all that.

    This is supposed to be an online community a notch above the rest, where we discuss relevant matters amongst ourselves and help each other out respectfully. Telling other members, some of whom actually have well thought out responses (even if they aren't up to your standards), that they're spewing bile or that their opinions don't matter is hardly respectful.
     
  23. silicosys4

    silicosys4 Member

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    Agreed. There is a lot of outright rudeness coming from you, Mr. Ettin, rudeness that is completely uncalled for. I'm sure you are an educated adult and can convey your message without mockery, condescension, and vitriol.
    I'm a fisheries biologist. If I gave my recommendations and professional analysis of proposed fisheries with the same amount of rudeness as you, I'd been out of a job long ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Do not paint with a brush too broad.

    It would be one thing to label drivel as drivel, and another to criticize people who do have well thought out responses.

    It would be one thing to point out that unsubstantiated and irrelevant snide innuendo is not substantive (and I too think it was bile and spleen), and another to say that rational and supportable opinions don't matter.

    To suggest that we should not treat the subject with balance simply because of what we think of the BATF reflects badly on us, and not on them.

    I do not see " mockery, condescension, and vitriol". I see what is commonly referred to as "telling it like it is".

    And it is incumbent upon us to counter such comments firmly.
     
  25. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    I completely agree with you, never said otherwise.

    Doesn't change that a little tact goes a long way. Mike Rowe is able to shut down his critics and other dissenters very effectively without ever using a sharp tongue. In fact, his own humility in his responses causes those who were wrong to seriously reconsider their position, whereas using insults generally allows one's opposition to feel rather righteous in their dismissal of a rebuttle, regardless of the merit within.

    Perhaps taking a play from his book would be wise for some here. I've been around long enough to see that it's nigh impossible to engage in debate with Frank without him being condescending, accusing you of spewing drivel, twaddle, bile or whatever is the synonym du jour, and basically calling you an idiot in so many words. As Silycosis4 pointed out, most of us wouldn't have careers if we treated our customers so disrespectfully, regardless of how wrong they may be. When one of mine says "I have X going on with my (insert vehicle), I think it's Y causing it", even if I know they are 100% wrong, I don't tell them they have no clue, no business attempting to diagnose their vehicle, and that they should stick to what they know and otherwise keep their mouth shut. No. I tell them "well, that's not real likely, but we're just gonna have to have a look and see. I'll let you know what I find!". And they come back, as well as send other people my way. No matter how good you are at what you do, you cannot be a complete prick to others and expect it to never bite you, and that includes being a moderator on a bulletin board.
     
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