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Baton Training?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Cosmoline, Mar 5, 2011.

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  1. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    Again think canes...If into a stick of sorts;)

    I am into FMA and have been for many years...Cane is the answer imho...
    Canemasters have a good website and loads of material...

    http://www.canemasters.com/

    In the area you are in/at, making one from a tree would be very easy:)

    The various sprays that are available are an easy route also...

    Bear spray in your neck of the woods is the answer...
    http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray.htm

    Regards
     
  2. MillCreek

    MillCreek Member

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    Since I was originally trained as a chemist, I experiment all the time. The recommended ammonia dilution is one part of household ammonia to ten parts of water. Please note that household ammonia is generally 5-10% ammonia. The smell of ammonia is generally distasteful to dogs, and this sort of diluted spray is commonly recommended as a dog deterrent in the bicycling, dog-training and running communities.
     
  3. glistam

    glistam Member

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    In that case perhaps consider a Monadnock baton. They are button-lock so they can be used as a prod if deployed correctly.
     
  4. Smokey Joe

    Smokey Joe Member

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    Gotta add my 2 cents...

    I've had an unfortunately large amount of experience dealing with dogs both as a runner and as a cyclist.

    As a cyclist I used to just kick the dog, and that worked, fine (the dog never expects you to fight back in any way!) as a deterrent to further agression. And I never fell off my bike doing it, or such. But I always disliked actually injuring the beast--as has been pointed out, it's the owner's fault, not the dog's, that the dog is out in the street chasing you.

    Anyhow, after shutting a German Shepherd's mouth on his tongue, with my heel, one time, with a kick from aboard my bicycle, I decided that the chemical spray was more humane. Began carrying that.

    As to wind, the chem. spray comes out in a solid stream which is good for 10-12 feet on a still day, and with a brand-new can. After several years of carry, that range gets cut in half, at which point I retire the can and buy a new one. The dog is always close enough to me on the bicycle that wind would not be a factor--you just hose down his whole face anyhow. I've had errant small amounts of spray hit another rider, who reported that it was very hot and uncomfortable in his eye/mouth, but bearable. And the effects are gone after several hours, even with no treatment.

    I generally hold the spray can with my fingers, and press the button with my thumb. The cans are set up so you can tell by feel which way the spray is pointed.

    As to effectiveness: I have stopped a Doberman pinscher in full-out attack mode, coming at me while running on the street. (Scary sight!) Waited until he was abt. 8 feet away, hosed down his face, and he suddenly remembered he had an appointment elsewhere.

    I have also held off 3 black Labrador retrievers, and a standard poodle, all at the same time, while on my bicycle. Hosed down each of the Labs in turn--One of them couldn't believe how bad it was, and came back to try again. The second time, he believed. Never got to squirt at the poodle--when the poodle saw how the Labs were faring, he hung back--smart dog! All the while the dogs' owner was standing in the road yelling at me.

    Bottom line: I have experience with this. The dog spray DOES WORK, and IMHO, it is far more humane than hitting the dog. It doesn't do permanent damage to dogs or humans.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  5. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    What's the brand of spray you're using? If it's truly non-toxic I'm not against using it, though I still want something to prod the hund.

    Also, do you know the freeze point of the stuff?

    Thank you! That looks ideal. Just ordered one from Midway.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  6. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    Smokey Joe:

    You might have convinced me to try something like that. I always used the kick method on bicycles. Normally you don't need to actually kick them, just kick the air near their face and they get the message. But some dogs will only become more aggressive if you do this so you better make contact right away or your plan will backfire. You gotta read the dog and make a decision.

    I disagree that it is the owner's fault. some dogs just chase cars. It's in their blood. I believe it has something to do with the sound made by a spinning wheel. they always go after the tires. Normally this is only dangerous to the dog, but with bicycles, there is a serious potential injury to the cyclist.

    I'll tell ya when the kick method isn't so good. Motorcycles. There used to be a large rotweiller (sp?) that would actually bite tires near me. I'm sure he's run over and killed by now. But he came after my front tire while riding a harley and I let him have it. I was not about to let a dumb dog dump my shiny harley on a gravel road. What I didn't think about was that I was doing 35-40 mph. The dog went tumbling, I almost got pulled off my harley, and my ankle was seriously dislocated.
     
  7. Smokey Joe

    Smokey Joe Member

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    Brand...

    Cosmoline--The brand of spray I currently use is called "Halt!" It is available, around here @ any rate, at most local bicycle shops.

    Local cyclists are in pretty general agreement that it works, and works well.

    No experience with Halt! freezing--haven't used it in the winter.

    Remo 223--That's what is known as a Pyrrhic victory.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  8. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    http://cspoutdoors.com/hadogresp.html

    http://www.halt.com/halt.html

    BTW, if you select a spray that produces a stream instead of a spray or fog you're unlikely to have problems with overspray or drift.

    BTW again, which Monadnock did you order? Remember if certification is required for legal carry in Alaska you will either need a general baton instructor to issue a certificate or a Monadnock instructor instead of an ASP instructor. States laws on legal carry of batons sometimes requires specific certification on the brand or a general certification (weird laws like with knives).
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  9. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    State law doesn't seem to care, though the Muni has an old anti-blackjack law against carrying any club concealed. This will not be concealed. Weird to be in a state that lets you carry, without a permit, a .454 but bans possession of brass knuckles. I think some of the provisions are holdovers from the days when Alaska was full of pool sharks and mob enforcers.
     
  10. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Just an update, I picked up a long heavy Monadnock. I have rigged it to clip, unconcealed, to any stiff belt or strap. Should work well.

    On training, I did a search and came up with this:

    http://www.alaskabaton.com/

    Which I don't think is *QUITE* what I'm after. I mean it would confuse the dogs and bad guys, I'm sure. But it wouldn't be of much practical help.
     
  11. Flintknapper

    Flintknapper Member

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    Just carry a cat with you.

    Dog approaches, dump the cat....problem solved. ;)
     
  12. carpettbaggerr

    carpettbaggerr Member

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    Cosmo- if it's just a few specific neighborhood dogs that you sort of like, I'd pay a visit off the bike with some doggie treats. Talk to the owner and make nice with the dogs. Then keep some treats in your pocket.


    For other more general dogs I'd keep a stream-type OC spray and use it after dismounting. Keep the bike between you and the dogs.


    But it sounds kind of like you just want to carry a stick on your bike. Just mount a nice hardwood stick like it's a bikepump -- I'd worry about the ASP freezing or sticking in the cold.

    A search for "hapkido cane" has lots of interesting results,but nothing specific about bikes or dogs....
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  13. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    This is an old thread but I thought I might give an update. I ended up using an ASP mounted on the handlebars in a taped-on baton holster. It stays put pretty well. I have not been using it as a traditional baton, but rather practicing whipping it out and holding it down at calf-level behind my leg. I've deployed it a few times in this manner when dogs charge. Thankfully none have kept pursuit after that. The action and sound of it seems to shake them out of thinking I'm a happy meal. The idea is not to beat the dog with it but put a piece of steel between my flesh and his fangs. So far, it's working OK. Though for this purpose the design might be a bit different for blocking rather than striking. A genuine attack dog would just nail my arm or wrist but those beasts are rare and rarely unsupervised. Most of the culprits are going for a sucker bite on meat.

    Verdict--Better than nothing and easier to manipulate while riding than spray. But not exactly the right tool for the job.
     
  14. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    My vote is for a CS Shambok.
     
  15. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    It's a great idea but a bit on the long side. I wish they made a collapsing sjambok.
     
  16. MillCreek

    MillCreek Member

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    A fellow bicyclist cut down a cheap fiberglass fishing rod for this very purpose. I would estimate it is about two feet long.
     
  17. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    A cut down broken fiberglass fishing rod would work good.
     
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