Be all you can be.

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With that blanket statement logic we should not allow until the age of brain formation (whatever that is)-
any legal prosecution of them for law violations as they have "unformed brains" and can't tell right from wrong
any of them to hold any position of trust involving the public policy
allow them to touch anything dangerous or hunt etc.
I never said or implied any such idiocy, nor did I say they have no brain function or culpability.

What I did say is that 18 year olds are not mature, and they are easily gullible. Also, last time I checked:

dead was forever.

IMHO, it is not at all unreasonable that restrictions be placed on recruiting or advertising aimed at getting 18 year olds to go into a profession where they can be killed or maimed. And given about 2000 have been killed and 16,000 wounded in Iraq, that is not hyperbole: it's a real possibility and not a remote one.


1) truthfully informed consent
-Have you seen a modern recruiting contract???
That is pointless to argue because I am handicapped in that I must live in the real world. Yes, I know exactly what recruiters have been doing and so do you. They recently had a one day "stand down" where they were collectively counseled for inappropriate method and tactics. Hidden camera reports have been shown documenting the lying and subverting of the law.

I know exactly what the mindset is and I don't want it aimed at 18 year olds. By 25, they can believe all the BS they want.... but at least give them a chance to see reality and decide.
 
I wounder if the recruiter told everyone coming through the door that they would be sent to another land, where anybody at any time could try to kill them because they are Americans, and that for this they wouldn't receive one red cent, I wonder how many would sign up.
And what about those foolish National Guard who enlisted believeing their job was to Guard our Nation?

Where could they have gotten such a stupid idea? maybe from the name of their organization?

To be fair, maybe the NG should be re named the: discount priced troops we can activate for just 6 months at a time so we don't have to pay for a full hitch........ and send off to do any stupid job where we need military bodies in any hell hole 10,000 miles from home.

Not a catchy title, but at least it's truthful.
 
I love those arguments about 18 year olds who can't form an opinion. I agree, the majority of 18 year olds vote Democrat and that is clearly a sign of poor judgement and immaturity. As far as being a soldier it just so happens that physically and mentally ~18 year olds make very effective soldiers. Effective soldiers make an effective army and a nation needs an effective army because the world is a nasty place. It has nothing to do with whats best for the 18 year old and has everything to do with the survival of the nation.
 
I thought this place was supposed to be "The High Road"?

Not in this thread, it isn't.

The Bush haters and malcontents are out in full force in many threads.

I read their screeds, argue my points and rethink my positions if nescessary.

Those that are against the Iraq war won't be convinced at this point. They are isolationists, peaceniks or against anything the GOP does, right or wrong.

At some point you either trust those in government when they say we need to use military force or you don't.

The peaceniks, anarchists and libertarians hate our government so much that nothing short of a 9/11 pt2 will convince them of the need to use our military.
 
The peaceniks, anarchists and libertarians hate our government so much that nothing short of a 9/11 pt2 will convince them of the need to use our military.

I wouldn't have a problem with using it against those who were actually behind the attacks.
 
But for the rest of us it is pretty clear that a person at the age of 18 can know very little to form a rational, educated opinion on most matters. Even if they were busy educating themsleves and acquiring experience the previous years. Which most nobody does.
Male's brain is not even fully-formed until 25 or so.

Speak for yourself, not everyone else. You might have been immature and irrational at 18 but not all of us were. I knew I wanted to be an engineer when I was 15, made the choice to focus on that, went to college on a scholarship, got two degrees, and now enjoy my career immensely.

Just because you lacked the capability to make life-altering decisions when you were 18 doesn't mean the rest of us did. If, when I am 60, I look back I can't fault my choice at 15 because I made the best decision based on the information I had at the time. What you describe is a case of regret, not an immature brain.

We need to quit coddling teenagers and force them to make decisions and they will learn to make them in a mature manner. When you coddle them and do everything for them, how can you expect them to mature. There is no reason that good decisions cannot be made at 18. Sure, good parental input helps, but heaven forbid someone be a real parent these days.. :rolleyes:
 
I'm also one who proudly served for twenty years (Navy) and it did me a lot of good. I learned a trade that brings in top dollar that along with my military retirement pay earns me a great living, I have very cheap health care for the rest of my life (and my wife's) and if you want a goverment job like I have being a vet gets you head of the line in the door at an advanced pay grade. Was it all fun and what my recruiter told me it would be?? Not hardly. But anything worth having is hardly easy. As far as a draft or a go to the military besides jail deal the military would waste way to much time and money dealing with derelics.
 
Imagine my suprise when they issued me a rifle instead of the basket of kittens that the recruiter had promised me.

(And yes, I do know all the posters in the recruiting office show steely-eyed Rangers hefting huge baskets brimming with little kittens, but that's something to aim toward, not a promise.)

Luckily, by the time I read the second snippet, I was plum outta beverage to blow over my laptop.
 
I haven't enlisted. I wouldn't enlist for my brother and couldn't even if I wanted to. That is the price I am unwilling to pay--losing my brother. I'd rather die than lose my brother.

I do love my country and would gladly enlist if I knew a) it wasn't going to put my parents through what I know it will and b) I knew if I actually died, I was actually dying for my country instead of some 2nd world sand box I didn't give a rat's rear end about.

As for why he joined. He's just turned 20. He's always been spontaneous and this decision was no different. What would people expect him to do? They offer him $14000 in sign on bonuses, plus pay, make it sound like all he will be doing is running around shooting guns--which is all he does anyways--and then the recruiter personally pays off an MIP my brother had. That's pretty enticing if you don't think it all the way through--$14000+ a job in one hand or -$250 in the other. He should have looked before he leaped cause I am sure the possibility or even the promise of Iraq didn't seem as real to him in an air conditioned recruiting station in Kalispell, Montana as it does now north of Baghdad.
 
I lucked out- was an 18 year old high school dropout the year the draft ended. Had two brothers in Vietnam. So I never went in the military.
So take all this commentary with some salt. BUT- the purpose of the military is to fight. When you go in, you are joining a combat service. You are not expected to make political decisions about what, where, and why to fight. This is where the service part comes in. You are doing your countrys dirty work. I don't understand why there is even a question about this.

And to put two things into perspective- If we were not fighting al-queda at the start of this Iraq conflict, we sure are now. And altho I am sure that the impact of losing a son or daughter is burned into a soul forever, the fact is that by historical standards our casualties have been very low.

And one more- I am no big fan of Bush, but consider this- Saddam hates the US. Saddam had a nuke program at one time, FOR SURE. After 9/11, the
concern about a terrorist nuke attack here HAD to be taken into account.
Would any of us like to have been the ones who decided not to depose Saddam and find out he slipped a nuke into the hands of a terrorist organisation? Hindsight is 20/20. Bush had to make some very difficult decisions. I am not tryng to be an apologist for him, just trying to emphasis the enormity of the choices that had to be made.
 
18 year old soldiers

These "clueless" 18 year olds are some of the most professional you will ever see. To those of you who have never served, you really don't understand, no offense meant. We as americans have no real responsibility until we hit our 20's. The military gives that responsibility a few years earlier and these "kids" rise to the challenge and inspire respect even from the "adults" who lead them. I'm very proud to have served and while it admittedly isn' for everyone, many people come out the better for the experience. No, it isn't all good, but neither is life in general. As for the comment about our people in uniform being mercenaries, it may technically be true as they get a paycheck for doing violence, but I resent the connotation which I am sure was intentional. So, in short, it isn't all peache an cream, bu it also isn't a sure thing to be killed or wounded. Sure, it happens, but little old ladies walk out in front of busses, too. just because there is risk involved doesn't make it bad.

My final thought before I start to rant too badly is you can dissagree about the politics of the war, I'm not sure I buy into all the spin either, but quite bashing the folks who saw fit to sign up. And please stop thinking of them as incompetent in any way. You innadequacies at 18 do not apply to most others.
 
My final thought before I start to rant too badly is you can dissagree about the politics of the war, I'm not sure I buy into all the spin either, but quite bashing the folks who saw fit to sign up. And please stop thinking of them as incompetent in any way. You innadequacies at 18 do not apply to most others.

I am not sure if that was directed at me but regardless I would like to make it clear that I fully support America's finest in harm's way. I wish them a job well done and a swift and safe return and I admire them for the sacrifices they make. My grandpa was in Korea in 53, and of his three son's, two of them were in the Army. My dad was afraid he was going to miss most of my early childhood because of Beirut. I also respect my brother for his decision and sacrifices, regardless of his motivation or how ill informed I think his decision was made. There have been some good changes in him. But war changes people in bad ways too. I am one of the few people close enough to my brother for him to actually open up to and it is a rare occassion to hear him cry, but I know once in particular we got to talking about him going to Iraq and he was close. He told me he was scared that even if he returned with all his body parts in tact, he'd never be the same person again. Anyways, I don't believe I ever said anything to the contrary but I would like to avoid being called a Fonda or a pacificist. I believe there are times when war is necessary, inevitable, and even beneficial. I also believe this is not one of those times. I used to support the war but certain events have a way of changing your perspective. Having a relative or someone you love very much go into harm's way makes it really difficult to support who or whatever put him/her there. I don't think Bush is a criminal but I do think he is in error, even if he did make the best possible decision with the information available to him at the time. And even if he isn't in error, I still don't care because no possible benefit of this war that I can perceive could ever make up for or replace the loss of my brother.
 
The peaceniks, anarchists and libertarians hate our government so much that nothing short of a 9/11 pt2 will convince them of the need to use our military.
I hate government in general (I'm in the third category), based on its immense capacity for evil. I also see the need to use our military power, sometimes even pre-emptively.

Spare me the false generalized statements based on what you think I think.
 
Spare me the false generalized statements based on what you think I think.
Doc, I, for one, base what I think you think on what you say here.

Have you made a mistake in your statements?

Were any of them false?

If not, then it's what we have to go on.

Have a nice day. :cool:
 
"And what about those foolish National Guard who enlisted believeing their job was to Guard our Nation?

Where could they have gotten such a stupid idea? maybe from the name of their organization?"

That's a bit of a stretch. No, it's more than a stretch, it's silly. You are constructing arguments out of thin air.

Five seconds on Google (or in any library) will show extensive listings of state NG units serving in WWI and WWII. Try typing in National Guard WWII and hitting Enter.

John
 
Colt:
"So that Al Qaida doesn't have a safe haven to train and develop tactics to use against US civilians on American soil."
--------------

Iraq has become an Al Qaeda training ground. And, while we try to
secure Iraq's border, the US southern border remains wide open.

--------------
MTM:
"To hell with Iraq. Nuke the place for all I care. "
--------------

This would destroy the infrastructure and contaminate the oil we need.

--------------
Grey:
"It's not like Iraq up and attacked the US, and that our young citizens signed up to prtoect us and take the fight to Iraq. No, they did it for the money."
--------------

Give people credit who signed up for pure idealistic patriotism. How about
those people who heard the "imminent danger" speeches after 9-11 and
signed up because they did really wanted to protect America? Should they
do it for free?

--------------
MTM:
"I do love my country and would gladly enlist if I knew a) it wasn't going to put my parents through what I know it will and b) I knew if I actually died, I was actually dying for my country instead of some 2nd world sand box I didn't give a rat's rear end about."
---------------

A) It will bother your parents even if it's for a good cause. Plenty of moms
and dads worried about their kids in WWII, etc. B) You would be dying
for your own interests and national security. As long as America needs
gasoline to live its suburban driving S-Mart shopping existence, then this
country will need to be guarding the world's gas pump. Everybody who
drives a car to work, goes through a drive thru bank/fast food place
on the way to picking up another plastic trinket in China, needs to realise
how important our soliders are right now. The US citizens' common
collective economic interest is resting on the IBA-clad shouldiers of every
soldier in Iraq right now.
 
Doc, I, for one, base what I think you think on what you say here.
OK, show me where what said I said expressed or implied anything in the following statement:
libertarians hate our government so much that nothing short of a 9/11 pt2 will convince them of the need to use our military.

Have you made a mistake in your statements?

Were any of them false?
No, and no. Try again.
 
OK, show me where what said I said expressed or implied anything in the following statement:
Honey, I didn't make a specific claim.

I told you what I based my beliefs on.

The rest is yours.

"Walk into a crowded bar, yell 'Hey, STUPID', and at least two people will jump up, and demand to know if you're calling them stupid."--George Irvine III, circa 1997
 
Some of us take huge pay-cuts when we deploy. If I was after money I'd get a second job delivering pizzas instead of staying in the reserves.

our military is also comprised entirely of mercenaries. All of them are paid for the job they do. How many of them do it so they can pay for college? How many of them do it because they thought they could make some money?

It's not like Iraq up and attacked the US, and that our young citizens signed up to prtoect us and take the fight to Iraq. No, they did it for the money.

Yes, I get paid. My family does have to eat. So did Alvin York's family, George Washington's family, etc...

That doesn't make us mercenaries. Mercenaries would offer their services to the highest bidder.

Maybe you don't understand what motivates thosse in uniform, so please do us all a favor and quit speculating and assuming the worst motive.
 
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
 
the purpose of the military is to fight. When you go in, you are joining a combat service. You are not expected to make political decisions about what, where, and why to fight. This is where the service part comes in. You are doing your countrys dirty work. I don't understand why there is even a question about this.
+1.

It is simply beyond my comprehension that some folks cannot understand what the words 'armed services' mean.
 
It is simply beyond my comprehension that some folks cannot understand what the words 'armed services' mean.

Probably because they have never served.

I could say several things about such people, but in the spirit of gentlemanly debate, I will refrain.
 
Those that are against the Iraq war won't be convinced at this point. They are isolationists, peaceniks or against anything the GOP does, right or wrong.

That is merely something that you want to believe, just as you wanted to believe that Iraq had stockpiles of WMD. Wishing doesn't make it so.

Retired general: Iraq invasion was 'strategic disaster'
WASHINGTON -- The invasion of Iraq was the “greatest strategic disaster in United States history,” a retired Army general said yesterday, strengthening an effort in Congress to force an American withdrawal beginning next year., Retired Army Lt. Gen. William Odom, a Vietnam veteran, said the invasion of Iraq alienated America's Middle East allies, making it harder to prosecute a war against terrorists.

General William E. Odom, U.S. Army (Ret.), is a Senior Fellow with Hudson Institute and a professor at Yale University. As Director of the National Security Agency from 1985 to 1988, he was responsible for the nation's signals intelligence and communications security. From 1981 to 1985, he served as Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, the Army's senior intelligence officer.

From 1977 to 1981, General Odom was Military Assistant to the President's Assistant for National Security Affairs, Zbigniew Brzezinski. As a member of the National Security Council staff, he worked upon strategic planning, Soviet affairs, nuclear weapons policy, telecommunications policy, and Persian Gulf security issues. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1954, and received a Ph.D. from Columbia University in 1970.

Saddam had a nuke program at one time, FOR SURE.

Said program was terminated after Gulf War I.
How to Stop Nuclear Terror by Gen. Grahm Allison, Douglas Dillon Professor of Government and Director of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. From 1993 to 1994 he was Assistant Secretary of Defense for Policy and Plans.

It is impossible to avoid mentioning Iraq. The Bush administration used the danger that Saddam might supply WMD to terrorists as its decisive argument for war. The subsequent failure to find evidence of these weapons has compromised the administration's credibility on the general subject of WMD, as well as the perceived competence of the U.S. intelligence community. Moreover, during the year and a half in which the United States sought to get other countries to support its Iraq policy, North Korea and Iran were able to accelerate their own programs. Mounting a serious campaign now to prevent nuclear terrorism will thus be more challenging than it would have been before the Iraq war.
 
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