Bear Loads, Really?

[Quanah]

Statistics only matter until you become one. This applies to seat belts and a lot of other risk/reward choices- including carry guns. Use enough gun for the worst case.

 

[Frulk]

^^^THIS Right here….

 

[Pat Riot]

Many years ago my girlfriend (at the time) and I went on a big two-month 13,000mi road trip from Florida to Seattle and back. We camped in Idaho, in the middle of nowhere. Actually, we had an argument because she had refused that I bring my SAA clone in .45 Colt. It was her car so I had little say in the matter. Before we left it didn't seem like a big deal but in the Idaho wilderness, I felt a little bit naked. I asked her: "So, if a bear attacks, I get mauled while you run away?" Which apparently wasn't the best thing to say at the time. She finally understood my position, but it took a bit of arguing and frustration on my part. What I did not understand is that she was not really anti-guns, even went to the range with me and shot one of mine, but she was pretty clueless as to possible threats in the real world. I said "bear," but I could have mentioned a few other possibilities... Actually, we learned later that a week after we were in Yellowstone, someone was killed by a bear, or it was a couple, I don't remember, I think it was in the summer of 2011.
Gil.

Years ago I used to rock climb with 3 friends. Whenever we went rock climbing anywhere I carried a 1911 .45 in my backpack in a “hidden pocket”.
None of my 3 friends were pro gun and once when I told them I would like to bring my gun along they all 3 freaked out.
So, I brought it anyway. I just never told them.
We all carried our own packs so there was no need to worry about someone discovering it.

Edit: I forgot yo mention the time we were hiking in Yosemite Nat’l Forrest and we encountered bear claw marks 10-12 feet up on the pine trees.
My 3 anti gun friends started talking about how it might be a good idea to have a gun along.
I never mentioned my 1911, but on a tree break I slipped it out of my pack and put it in my butt pack.
All of a sudden a .45 ACP just didn’t seem quite adequate when looking up at those huge claw marks on the trees.
I have a photo of a bear foot print that nearly made my one buddy wet his pants when we came across the tracks. The poor guy was actually shaking like a chihuahua.
The track was a good 15 inches wide. Big bear paw.

 

[herrwalther]

Based on what I can find, Alaska averages about 70 non-fatal bear attacks a year. One state. So we just are concerned with bears being fatal? You are okay with being mauled, just not killed? Odd stance.

Is bear, ninja, zombie etc ammo over hyped? Maybe. But when I go into bear country I am going to carry the best stuff I can find.

 

[gilgsn]

You are okay with being mauled, just not killed?

I just got those numbers, but feel free to get the non-fatal numbers.
I did not want this thread to be about bears though, but the other, often ignored threats.
So please everyone, let's forget about bears for once.
Gil.

 

[.308 Norma]

Years ago I used to rock climb with 3 friends. Whenever we went rock climbing anywhere I carried a 1911 .45 in my backpack in a “hidden pocket”.

Wife and I did a lot of rock climbing ourselves (sometimes with friends, sometimes not) in our younger years. So, I was just wondering what you did with your pack when you were actually "on the rock?" I mean, lots of times, my wife and I would just leave our packs, which contained our lunches, our extra climbing gear and our hiking boots (the ones we "hiked in" with before changing into our rock-climbing booties) at the bottom of the climb.
I used to worry a bit that some no-good would come along and steal our extra (expensive) climbing gear when we were 300 ft up on the side of a rock somewhere. I sure wouldn't have wanted to have to worry about them stealing a gun as well.
BTW, nothing like that ever happened. Ditching our backpacks at the bottom of a climb did bother me sometimes though.

 

[Frulk]

The OP stated he wants to move beyond bears in the discussion so I’ll do that after this last comment:

Bears are unique apex predators due to their ability to reach exceptional size. As such they are the ONLY game species that I carry specific handguns and ammo for. In one mt range I frequent grizzly pushing 750 pounds have been shot.

In other predator news: 1 mile from my house is national forest with an established trail system I use in the cooler months of the year. Cougar are in this area but have not attacked a human in a while even though encounters have occurred without any mauling or human deaths. Black bear are here as well but in very sparse numbers. Can’t remember the news reporting one being spotted by anyone in lord knows how long. This even though one close to 400 pounds was killed crossing the highway about 4 miles from my abode maybe 5 years back.

For the local area I’m comfortable wearing the SP101 in .357 Mag/.327 FM. I don’t upscale calibers for big cats or dogs (or cows for that matter). On some occasions I might wear a .40 cal semi-auto but that has more to do with colder months when a larger framed gun is easily concealable under an additional outer garment.

Speaking of cows: two weeks ago I took our two dogs and my daughters dog for a walk up in the hills. I parked at a trail head for a wildlife management area and we hiked in all uphill for about 1 mile with the canines off leash as no other vehicles were there. We dropped into a small draw with a muddy pond fed by a spring surrounded by huge cottonwood trees. Probably 8-12 free range cows with 2-3 calves were there. At no time was I worried that I was going to have to defend against an aggressive cow.

My mind was more on the numerous cow skeletons I was running into. Last winter was mild by our standards and the year before that we had a ton of snow but generally mild temps overall. Also, this isn’t a winter range for livestock. They only spend spring to late fall here so something is killing them during the warmer months.

Those are just some of the bovine remains I saw. All within about the size of a football field. We don’t yet have wolves here or grizzly. We do have black bears here but doubt one would do all this. I’m guessing 1 or more cougar is working the area.

 

[RickP66]

Aside from bears, mountain lions are the only predator in my area that worry me. On the plus side, I don't need a special caliber to kill one. On the negative side, I probably won't know they're hunting me until it's too late.

 

[Pat Riot]

Wife and I did a lot of rock climbing ourselves (sometimes with friends, sometimes not) in our younger years. So, I was just wondering what you did with your pack when you were actually "on the rock?" I mean, lots of times, my wife and I would just leave our packs, which contained our lunches, our extra climbing gear and our hiking boots (the ones we "hiked in" with before changing into our rock-climbing booties) at the bottom of the climb.
I used to worry a bit that some no-good would come along and steal our extra (expensive) climbing gear when we were 300 ft up on the side of a rock somewhere. I sure wouldn't have wanted to have to worry about them stealing a gun as well.
BTW, nothing like that ever happened. Ditching our backpacks at the bottom of a climb did bother me sometimes though.

When I took my gun along in my pack I carried my pack up the rocks.
Sometimes, if we were just rock hopping, I left the gun in a hidey hole in my locked truck.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I'm thinking this thread isn't about "Bears" . . but about a "Bear load". A "Bear load" will take care of everything on the "list" I would think . . . Wouldn't want to meet up with a mad Bear with a "dog load" !!

Mike

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Your stats report fatal attacks only as opposed to all bear attacks.

I had a black bear encounter just a couple of years ago while mountain biking near my home.

I stopped on a spur trail to investigate a possible problem with my bike.

I suddenly found myself between a sow bear and her cub. They'd been eating blackberries in the clearcut that I'd stopped on the edge of. I apparently surprised them. She charged in my direction but stopped behind a blackberry thicket.

I drew my Glock 19 and put my bike between me and the bear.

The cub ran off into the woods.

About 20 tense seconds later, waiting for her to do something, the sow ran into the woods after her cub.

My Glock was loaded with 147gr HST.

I'd considered possibly encountering in the forest a hostile or attacking human(s), dog(s), coyote, bobcat, and cougar, but bear never entered my mind.

My woods load is now 9mm 115gr Underwood Xtreme Penetrator.

 

[d2wing]

I grew up on a dairy farm. Holstien bulls were known to go into a blood rage and be dangerous. They were more free range in those days. I was gored by a heifer and end up in a hospital. They can be ornery. a toss of their head and those horns can on a 800 lbs. animal can hurt. Most people hurt by animals own the animals, dogs or cattle, even deer. We have bears, wolves, coyotes commonly but dogs are more dangerous to people than all of them. We also have bad accidents and fatalities from hitting deer with motorcycles too. I almost hit a bear once.

 

[.38 Special]

Aside from bears, mountain lions are the only predator in my area that worry me. On the plus side, I don't need a special caliber to kill one. On the negative side, I probably won't know they're hunting me until it's too late.

I live at the edge of a wilderness park where there have been several mountain lion attacks over the past couple of decades. As best I can tell, there was only one which appears to have been the classic "hit from behind" attack - the fellow did not survive, so we don't know for sure.

The rest all involved lions which were behaving strangely - which seems to be the norm for lions which attack people in general - and which gave the victims and onlookers time to get involved.

Which is a long way of saying that carrying a gun in mountain lion country seems like a perfectly legitimate practice.

 

[RickP66]

I live at the edge of a wilderness park where there have been several mountain lion attacks over the past couple of decades. As best I can tell, there was only one which appears to have been the classic "hit from behind" attack - the fellow did not survive, so we don't know for sure.

The rest all involved lions which were behaving strangely - which seems to be the norm for lions which attack people in general - and which gave the victims and onlookers time to get involved.

Which is a long way of saying that carrying a gun in mountain lion country seems like a perfectly legitimate practice.

Well, I have the gun already, so...

 

[stonebuster]

Did someone mention bear loads? I've got to be careful I don't step in a bear load in my yard and I live in a residential area. FYI, about the only thing that scares them off anymore is an air horn. Amazing how fast they can move when I use that horn. They're here regularly...

 

[.308 Norma]

Did someone mention bear loads? I've got to be careful I don't step in a bear load in my yard and I live in a residential area.

 

[someguy2800]

I just got those numbers, but feel free to get the non-fatal numbers.
I did not want this thread to be about bears though, but the other, often ignored threats.
So please everyone, let's forget about bears for once.
Gil.

Seams to me that most of the animals that have been known to try to kill you, at least here in North America are in one of 2 buckets. In the large tough bucket we have bears, cows, american buffalo, moose, ect... If those animals are expected to be a threat I would want the biggest bore gun I can shoot well and am willing to carry loaded with deep penetrating monolithic bullet.

In the other category are animals that are similar size and construction to humans such as dogs, mountain lions, panther, wolves, ect... If those are the expected threat I would carry the same thing that I would for defense against humans, a modern expanding hollow point defense load.

I suppose there is some ambiguity in some cases such as wild hogs and black bear. Both of them can be anywhere from 75 lbs to 500+ lbs so I would probably still side for a deep penetrating monolithic, but probably don't need as big or heavy of a caliber.

 

[Onty]

I live at the edge of a wilderness park where there have been several mountain lion attacks over the past couple of decades. As best I can tell, there was only one which appears to have been the classic "hit from behind" attack - the fellow did not survive, so we don't know for sure.

The rest all involved lions which were behaving strangely - which seems to be the norm for lions which attack people in general - and which gave the victims and onlookers time to get involved.

Which is a long way of saying that carrying a gun in mountain lion country seems like a perfectly legitimate practice.

If I am living in area, or want go hiking, where bears and mountain lions are present, I will seriously consider 3 things:

1. Carrying handgun, starting with 10 mm Auto, bullets190-220 grains. As for another semiauto, 45 Super only, but with heavy bullet, like Buffalo Bore 255 grains https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=163 . As for revolver, 41 Magnum and larger.
2. Definitely hiking with another person. But one that also carries powerful handgun.
3. If alone, never without large dog. Canine friend could sense bear or mountain lion far away. Also, if I am hiking with another person, I would like to have a dog with us. BTW, if I am living close to area where bears or mountain lions are occasionally seen, I would have at least two large dogs on my property.

 

[Mostly Lead]

I love dogs, so this is a distressing statistic...
Why don't we see dog or cow defence loads threads?

If you're loaded for dog, may have some difficulty with cows, lions & tigers and bears - oh my! Sorry, wandered off the yellow brick road there a minute...

But when you're "loaded for bear", everything else will absolutely respect the authority of that load when it arrives at their hide.

*D'oh! I see that @45 Dragoon already covered this point...

 

[gilgsn]

But when you're "loaded for bear", everything else will absolutely respect the authority of that load when it arrives at their hide.

Well, it does make sense. I'd say that a smaller gun is easier to carry and more discreet, but I have also seen some pretty small .44 Special revolvers and .40/10mm pistols. That said, some states or countries don't have grizzlies or other large threats..
Would .44 Special work for most cases? .45 colt? .357? .45ACP+P? 10mm? I don't mean for large bears ok, for everything else?
Gil.

 

[RickP66]

Well, it does make sense. I'd say that a smaller gun is easier to carry and more discreet, but I have also seen some pretty small .44 Special revolvers and .40/10mm pistols. That said, some states or countries don't have grizzlies or other large threats..
Would .44 Special work for most cases? .45 colt? .357? .45ACP+P? 10mm? I don't mean for large bears ok, for everything else?
Gil.

.45ACP would be fine for every predator other than large bears. Heck, 9mm would be fine for that.

 

[.38 Special]

If I am living in area, or want go hiking, where bears and mountain lions are present, I will seriously consider 3 things:

1. Carrying handgun, starting with 10 mm Auto, bullets190-220 grains. As for another semiauto, 45 Super only, but with heavy bullet, like Buffalo Bore 255 grains https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=163 . As for revolver, 41 Magnum and larger.
2. Definitely hiking with another person. But one that also carries powerful handgun.
3. If alone, never without large dog. Canine friend could sense bear or mountain lion far away. Also, if I am hiking with another person, I would like to have a dog with us. BTW, if I am living close to area where bears or mountain lions are occasionally seen, I would have at least two large dogs on my property.

This particular area doesn't permit dogs, but yeah, where allowed...

As for how my friend is armed, I have to admit that I am less interested in that than in which one of us is the faster runner.

 

[gilgsn]

But one that also carries powerful handgun.

Not sure about that Onty... I would be worried that the friend shot me by accident...
Or maybe he/she doesn't like me and that would be the perfect excuse
Gil.

 

[jmorris]

Why don't we see dog or cow defence loads threads?

Doesn't sound like as cool of a topic as bears. Probably why there are more "what for bear." threads on the internet than there are bears in the world...

That said, you are not the first to think of it.

 

[someguy2800]

I suspect you would find that most people killed by cows are the owners of the cow. Here in the US there are huge numbers of cows being openly grazed on public land so the chances of being attacked by a cow are slim but not zero. If you don't go seeking them out you are probably more likely to get hit by an asteroid.

If you are not going somewhere with truly tough and ornery animals like grizzly or cape buffalo or something like that then anything between 38 special and 45 colt should be perfectly good enough.