Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Beautiful old target rifle ( based on a Martini?)

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Mp7, Mar 22, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,148
    Location:
    Hamburg
    Just saw this on my local auction site.

    Old, rare ... and an asking price of 9.000Euros.

    Weird caliber, too: 8,15x46,5mm

    The rest is just visual awesomeness
    i thought i´d share :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    heres the link, in order to not make it
    too pic heavy.
    http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2703279

    -drool-
     
  2. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,773
    Location:
    Illinois`
    From the look of the rifle it is a Stahl Martini, which is one of the most common actions found on German Target Arms of the era.

    The Stahl Martini differs from the English Martini in the mainspring is a hooped flat spring in place of the Martini coil mainspring and the lever is offset from the centerline of the receiver.

    8.15X46.5 rimmed is not a wierd caliber to the Germans.
    Very common target cartridge in Germany.

    It would be comparable to the .32/30 and .32/40 tapered target cartridges found on American target ranges of that era.

    9000 euro or 11,500 US is a bit rich but the condition of the rifle and included accessories probably warrants the price.
     
  3. browningguy

    browningguy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    4,526
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    The 8.15 was a very popular (maybe the most popular) European target round in it's day, and that is a spectacularly carved and engraved rifle from the photos. Is it worth 9k euros? Only finding a buyer will tell, but for someone collecting these it is a pretty special rifle.
     
  4. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    11,262
    Location:
    28078
    You got that right! That is one beautiful rifle, the carving is outstanding, the engraving exquisite...Wow. Sure looks like a Martini to me. Thanks for sharing.

    LOL, Mp7 is German. :p
     
  5. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,773
    Location:
    Illinois`
    I went and looked at the auction site.
    I am sure it is a Stahl Martini.

    If Mp7 talks to the old timers at the sportsman club I am sure there are two or five that could school him on the 8.15 rimmed target cartridge.
    It was a very common cartridge for target shooting in Germany from 1860-1940 era.
     
  6. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    11,262
    Location:
    28078
    I have no idea of the price (I wasn't terribly interested), but I know where one of these can be found (chambering was the same IIRC). The example that I saw was nowhere nearly as ornate, but if someone is interested in one that is stateside, shoot me a PM and I'll send you in the right direction.

    :)
     
  7. paducahrider

    paducahrider Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    139
    The word is: "SCHUTZEN"!

    Howdy!
    All the prior comments seem correct, but no-one has mentioned what this rifle really is.
    It is a great example of a "schutzen" target rifle.
    It was designed to be fired in the offhand (standing) position, at targets at 200 or 300 yards. The target was a 25 ring target with the center only 1 1/2" in diameter, and a 12" bull.
    The firing was done in a relatively leisurely fashion, since it was common to reuse the same reprimed cartridge case, for each shot. When using this method, the bullet was inserted into the rifling by a bullet seating rod, then the case, with a load of black, smokeless or a mix of the two powders, with a wad over the mouth, was inserted into the chamber immediately before firing.
    Some shooters chose to load paper patched bullets directly into the cases, thus eliminating the seating process, but many would argue that this produced accuracy that did not quite reach that of the seperate bullet/case method.
    The 8.15X46r cartridge dates back to sometime between 1890 and 1900, and was still offered by RWS as late as 2000, though I haven't checked lately.
    Everything on the rifle was intended to improve accuracy by the standing shooter. The double set trigger, hooked buttplate, contoured and high mounted cheek rest, carved thumb rest, finger contoured trigger guard/grip, long barrel, and tang mounted peep sights (some with corrective lenses in varied color glass, to match light conditions),were all standard equipment on a Schutzen rifle.
    The barrels were constructed of the finest Krupp or Bohler steel, which was the finest in the world, and could have had rifling in 2, 4, 6, or 8 grooves, and one type even had grooved lands. These barrels could be expected to last from 30,000 to 40,000 rounds, since the 8.15X46r was seldom loaded past around 15,000 psi, and only lead bullets were used.
    Interestingly, one common feature, missing from the pictured example, was the drooping "hogbelly" or "potbelly" at the bottom of the buttstock, which could assist in steadying the rifle by resting on the shooters chest. The absence of this feature makes me wonder if this particular example could have done double duty, with different sights, as a hunting rifle.
    This form of offhand competition was a popular national sport in Germany and Austria for centuries, and in the U.S. from the late 1800s until the late 1930s.
    In somewhat less grand scale, these "schutzenfests" still take place.
    The competitions of old sometimes took on festival staus, over several days, before a champion was crowned(literally).
    The rifle pictured seems to be a beautiful example and I drool a bit just looking at it.
    I hope it gets a great home.
    It's an example of shooting "art", from a time long gone.
    Thanks for your time.
     
  8. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    11,262
    Location:
    28078
    Right...but you do realize that Schutzen rounghly translates to "gun" (actually shooter)...right? I am sure everyone here recognizes this as a gun. :rolleyes: :p
     
  9. paducahrider

    paducahrider Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    139
    The Word Is "SCHUTZEN"

    Howdy,
    To Maverick:
    Thanks for pointing that out.
    Actually though, "schutze" would be a single rifle shooter, while "schutzen" is the plural form, as in a group of rifle shooters.
    Early-on, this actually was the designation for a military group of rifle (specifically rifled musket)shooters, which evolved into the target shooters using the pictured form of firearm.
    I'm sure many folks already knew every single word of what I have related.
    I'm equally sure that many did not.
    The original contributor seemed; intrigued by the firearm; somewhat unaware of what he had; and, to be seeking further information.
    I've found the history of schutzen competition to be full of technically interesting information, and merely passed some of it along.
    I doubt that a large percentage of Americans have ever laid eyes on an example of this type of firearm.
    I hadn't either, until I was an adult, but found them possessed of all sorts of positive qualities which had been incorporated for good reasons.
    Sorry if my comment offended you in any way, but it was just intended to be informational.
    Thanks for your time.
     
  10. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    11,262
    Location:
    28078
    Naw, not at all, you know a good bit more about them than myself. I was just pickin'.

    :)
     
  11. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,148
    Location:
    Hamburg
    :) ... yep i knew, but was tooo lazy to write up
    a historic piece.

    Terms:

    It´s called "Scheibenbüchse" and the shooter is the "Schuetze"
    and the festival is called "Schuetzenfest".

    Hate to inform you that probably other than in niche sports
    or with rich collectors .. it´s almost extinct.

    Nowadays ... .22LR is commonly used ... and the gun is in
    a benchrest ... fixed, .. and believe me that´s the only
    way to let very drunk people shoot :)
     
  12. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    11,262
    Location:
    28078
    Only in Germany do you look for ways to let drunk folks shoot guns safely. :p
     
  13. Mandolin

    Mandolin Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    271
    LOL. No wonder they lost WW2! Too much beer. ;)
     
  14. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,148
    Location:
    Hamburg
    :)

    nah, i believe it had a lot to do with
    that cracksmoking lunatic, who somehow
    made it to the top while nobody payed attention,
    and considered himself a General, just because
    he had personally crapped his pants in a trench in WW1.

    ( ..let´s not turn this into a "historic" what if, i studied history ...
    ... with a strong focus on the military part )

    Um. Yes it must have been the beer :)
     
  15. Afy

    Afy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,595
    Actually a lot of drunk people in France shoot too. Its called the hunting season... :p
     
  16. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,526
    Location:
    Alabama
    That is a work of art.

    Will it shoot as good as it looks?:D
     
  17. paducahrider

    paducahrider Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    139
    Beer drinking shooters!

    Howdy!
    Interestingly, the Coors Beer Co. helped increase interest in schutzen matches in the U.S. a few years back.
    It definitely is a "niche" of the shooting sports, and the 22lr is probably predominant, but, my 1995 Lyman Loading Guide has a small section devoted specifically to schutzen information, and lists two cartridges in common use in the U.S., at that time: the Winchester 32-40 and the 32 Miller Short.
    The 32-40 was always a pretty common target cartridge in the U.S, from the later part of the 1800s (it was one of, if not, the, favorite cartridge of the great Harry Pope), but the 32 Miller is less typical in that it is much shorter, less tapered and actually looks more like a pistol cartridge.
    Thanks to MP7 for the better German translations, as I most definitely am not fluent, in any way, in that language.
    One thing is still true; this part of the sport puts a high demand on all aspects of marksmanship, from the rifle and cartridge quality, to the shooters ability to read conditions, control emotions and produce proper results.
    It's still a good sport, just taking back seat at the moment.
    Thanks for your time.
     
  18. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    21,980
    A lot of these guns have gotten separated from their reciever sights. This one still has its sight, which adds to the value and interest. Carving and engraving are better than average of the ones I have seen, too. The cartridge box is a nice accessory, although as said, most scheutzen is done with the same cartridge case for a day's shooting. They used to sell little nitrated silk powder charges and pre-cast lead bullets so the shooter would not need anything but a decapping-recapping tool; no resizing was needed.
     
  19. Mr_Pale_Horse

    Mr_Pale_Horse Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    751
    Location:
    IndianaKy
    Schütze(n) - shooter(s); A military designation for German light infantry armed with light (rifled) musket employed as skirmishers (an evolution of the Jäger).

    Auftrag?

    BEREIT!!!
     
  20. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    21,980
    Not with rifles like that they weren't.
     
  21. 52grain

    52grain Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    664
    What size targets were they shooting at?
     
  22. paducahrider

    paducahrider Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    139
    What size targets?

    Howdy!

    See comment # 7.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  23. Cledus J. Crabb

    Cledus J. Crabb Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Peoples Republic of Massachusetts
    Shuetzen is FUN!
    We have several matches at our club throughout the year and there are a few Stahl Martinis that show up to shoot.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page