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Beginers deer rifle

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by fpjeepy05, Nov 14, 2012.

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  1. WaywardSon

    WaywardSon Member

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    I am 64 and have hunted deer for many years...killed 'em with several different calibers. I am carrying a Remington Model 7 in the woods this year...chambered in .243 Winchester. Why?....for the same reason it makes a great youth gun. It is lightweight, easy to carry, accurate, low recoil and has plenty of power for deer out to at least 250 yards. In short...it is a great choice.

    My 11 lb. 45/70 that kicks like a mule has not left the house.

    The .243 is a perfect gun for someone just starting out. Go for it.
     
  2. fpjeepy05

    fpjeepy05 Member

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    There is some science behind the .243 being close to underpowered. I know it is plenty sufficient, but what happens in the event of a quartering to shot. If it hits shoulder an 85gr bullet might not drop a big deer after it hits shoulder. If you shoot a 115gr bullet it might help your chances, but now with a simple broad side shot without hitting ribs on either side, you would likely get over penetration and not do enough damage to drop the deer quickly. Does a 100gr solve all the problems, maybe maybe not.

    Chuck hawks has a great article about this entitled "The Sectional Density of Rifle Bullets"

    He recommends for deer sized game 95gr bullets with the .243 caliber. (sectional density .23)

    Momentum is needed to break bone and the heavier the bullet, the more momentum. As you increase the weight of the bullet recoil will also increase.

    So in order for recoil to stay the same velocity will have to decrease as weight increases.

    As velocity decreases, ballistics drop. But since where this hunter is going to be hunting will not require shots over 100 yards, ballistics is the least concern. So it appears that slow heavy large bore bullets would be the best choice.

    [As an aside, larger bore bullets tend to accelerate bullets more efficiently, because essentially there is more surface area on the back of the bullet to push on. It is much more complicated than that. But if you put 10gr of powder behind a 100gr .243 bullet and shoot out of a 20" barrel and then do the same with 10grs of powder behind a 100gr .308 bullet the .308 will be going faster. Since powder charge is a component of recoil this actually makes larger bores recoil less, which is counter intuitive... correct me if I'm wrong here.]

    Common slow heavy large bore bullet... Most handgun bullets. Say 44 Mag, only problem I see with this round is when is comes time to "take a trip out west" or "go hunting for Moose or Black bear" you can't really step up without going to a different gun.

    Thats why I thought the 45LC, 454 Casull, 460S&W was a good combination.

    Bottom line I'd rather see the kid learn the trajectory path of a bullet rather than how to track a wounded deer.

    I don't mean to act as though I am answering my own question, but I feel if I can convince you guys of this stuff then I may have a good point, and if I can't than maybe its all just mathematical BS.

    As for most of the calibers people are recommending they all seem good. They all also seem to agree with another chuck hawks article "Sensible Rifle Cartridges (Includes the 6mm Rem., .257 Roberts, 6.5x55 Swede, 7x57 Mauser, .300 Savage, .338 Federal and .358 Winchester)"
     
  3. fpjeepy05

    fpjeepy05 Member

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    How about the H&R Buffalo Classic 45LC Rifle. I was just reading that a bunch of guys have had them bored out to 454 Casull. Also can't go wrong for $380

    Playing my own devils advocate, Its not hard or expensive to go from a .243 TC encore to a .338 federal encore (If he needed to go to something bigger) just buy another barrel.
     
  4. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

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    H&R hasn't offered the Classic Carbine in 45LC for several years. I suppose they can still be found. I have one, reamed to 454 Casull, that I built a Mannlicher stock set for. Love it. In heavy Colt loads (and you can load very hot in the H&R) and with 454 loads it kicks a LOT more than a .243 or 7mm-08...
     
  5. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    Never felt undergunned using anything legal. They aren't tough animals.
     
  6. TheCracker

    TheCracker Member

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    I say a 270 or 308 w reduced loads is perfect. I moved my 11 y/o daughter up from a 223 (legal in tx) to my 270 with reduced loads. She can defiantly handle it and killed her first deer with it a couple weeks ago @ 40 yards. He ran about 35 yards and piled up. I've had them run farther with full power loads.
     
  7. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    308 Winchester with 125 grain reduced recoil loads...packaged in a short (20"-22" barrel) bolt action...something like a Winchester M70 Featherweight.

    http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535126 ...the "compact", 20" barrel

    or...

    http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535109 ... the regular Featherweight, 22" barrel

    A rifle the new hunter can ALWAYS cherish...they also come in 243, 7mm-08...and soon to be in 257 Roberts...I'd get the 308 though, versatile, plenty for any game in New England.

    I love the lil 243 for coyotes and such, and it kills deer just fine...but I prefer something bigger. I started my son out on a 243, he used it 1 season and bought a 308.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  8. Fremmer

    Fremmer Member

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    The 100 grain round is great for deer, and a bad shot with any caliber is a bad deal.
     
  9. Ar180shooter

    Ar180shooter Member

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    I finished off a deer at about 25 yards last week using a .223 (legal for deer in ON). Went straight through the bottom of the heart and out the other side. The bullets were 60gr Nosler partitions. I'd feel confident taking a deer within 100 yards with a .223. The key is shot placement.
     
  10. 1stmarine

    1stmarine Member

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    For those ranges and simplicity get a .223rem and you will be using one of our stndard military rounds. You could also get the 308w and use mild loads but it is too much. the 60gr partition or the 70gr barnes TSX will take down anything on those ranges and well beyond 150 yards.
    If you cannot shoot with the .223 then same deal, the 7.62x39 is a no brainer and can practice with cheap steel ammo.
    The 30/30 has been also a classic for deer for a long time.
    If you do not mind reloading and cannot shoot the .223 but want something budget friendly the 6x45 is a great option. free brass at the range bin and great assortment of bullets. And with a 22" barrel can take deer out to 300 yards if needed one day.
    So .223 parent case economic in two flavors.
    7.39 no brainer cheep steel ammo to practice.
    30/30 more punch than the 7.62x39 but no surplus/bulk ammo option.
    The 6x45 is going to be the best of all in terms of ballistics and sustained energy but at those ranges it doesn't matter that much anyway.

    my 2 cents.
     
  11. nathan

    nathan Member

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    A Ruger Scout rifle in .308 would be nice. Of course it cost more.
     
  12. WVRJ

    WVRJ Member

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    I've been hunting the eastern woods for 35 years and have a large collection of capable deer rifles to choose from.Where I hunt shots can range from right off the barrel to 300+ yards.The rifle I carry most is an older Rem. Model 7 with the 18" barrel.100 grain Speers turn a modest 2500 FPS and it does a great job.It's a cartridge that is hard to outgrow.
     
  13. Zeke/PA

    Zeke/PA Member

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    Lots of opinions herein.
    I've been carrying a 1968 vintage Marlin 336, .35 Remington for the past few years.
    Deadly accurate with Hornady Leverloutions and when the deer are hit, they go down and stay down.
     
  14. 6.5x55swedish

    6.5x55swedish Member

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    I love my marlin 336 in 35 rem, but good luck finding one now days and be prepared to spend some cash...

    I would go with something cheap like a handi-rifle or a dedicated slugger.

    6.5x55 is my all time favorite, but there again you are talking about spending some money.
     
  15. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    I honestly don't see why you wouldn't like the .243 for your nephew. A 'bush rifle' is more about the gun than the cartridge ('bush-busting' calibers are a myth). I think it would make a much better first gun than any of the pistol caliber choices you mention.

    If it was me, I would suggest either lever action in .30-30 or .44 magnum or else a lightweight bolt action in .243 or 7mm-08. Any of these are easy to find, easy to feed, relatively light recoiling and can serve a hunter for a lifetime.

    On the other hand, it will be your -nephew's- rifle so in the end I'd let him pick. As long as it wasn't something totally unsuitable like a long barreled Weatherby magnum! ;)
     
  16. ssyoumans

    ssyoumans Member

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    Hands down, 243 Win. I'm 44 years old and still use it for GA deer, took a 165lb buck 2 weekends ago with it using Hornady 95gr SST bullet. Devastating boiler room destruction. I have bigger guns, 308, 30-06, 8mm, but prefer the light weight Marlin XS7 in 243.

    I also have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 and a Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag. I would NOT recommend the Marlin 44 mag. It is a light gun and 240gr JHP/JSP kick quite hard out of it. I personally think it kicks more than my 308, but the 308 rifle does weigh more. 30-30 isn't bad for a starter, but even it kicks a bit more than you think. For a kid, ya can't pout a recoil reducing pad on either because then the length of pull is going to be too long.

    Go with a 243, its super versatile, from small predators to white tail deer, it works and your son won't grow weary of shooting it like some of the other calibers mentioned. You can always sell it in 2-3 years and not take more than a $50 loss these days, heck, you might even turn a profit.
     
  17. wlewisiii

    wlewisiii Member

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    I'm very fond of my old M93 Mauser in 7x57. Even with ammo appropriate to it's 100 year old steel, it's still more than enough for a deer.

    OTOH, I'll pick up my Winchester 94 in .30-30 when I go out the door tomorrow. Put a peep sight & a sling on it and you have what is still one of the finest deer rifles ever made.
     
  18. Hokkmike

    Hokkmike Member

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    I would suggest the following:

    .260
    .6.5 x 55
    .257 Roberts
    7mm 08
    7x57
     
  19. fpjeepy05

    fpjeepy05 Member

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    This is self contradicting. First you say you wouldn't recommend the pistol cartridges I listed and then you suggest "30-30 and 44 mag" a pistol cartridge I recommended.

    And the "bush busting" cartridges are not a myth. Chuck Hawks - Woods and Brush Guns

    .243 is great for long distance flat shooting. Not bush busting.
     
  20. fpjeepy05

    fpjeepy05 Member

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  21. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    The only myth is the wild assumption that chuck hawks actually know what he's talking about on any given subject.

    Quoting Mr hawks is a surefire way to discredit yourself in any gun forum.




    posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about
     
  22. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm

    Not exactly scientific but it does show that heavy bullets can be deflected just as much as in the case of the 510g 45/70 vs the 55g sp 223




    posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about
     
  23. Fremmer

    Fremmer Member

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    Yep a limb is a good way to screw up any shot from any caliber.
     
  24. fpjeepy05

    fpjeepy05 Member

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    "Lessons learned:
    1. Light weight, fast bullets like the .223 were knocked off their axis and deflected more than heavier bullets. In fact, it was flying sideways after 10 yards."

    From the link you referenced.
     
  25. fpjeepy05

    fpjeepy05 Member

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    So you think a .243 is just as good of a bush gun as a 12 gauge slug?
     
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