Beginner Q: muzzle flip affect accuracy?

[buzzcut]

So far I have only shot a rimfire pistol, and had great luck. I always hear how difficult it is to shoot centerfire handguns, and wonder why.

Q: Does muzzle flip affect accuracy? Do you have to resist the recoil and muzzle flip to hit where you want, or is shot placement already a done deal when the trigger breaks, before the muzzle begins to rise?

Why is it so difficult for so many folks to shoot a handgun well?


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[Pietro Beretta]

Why is it so difficult to shoot a handgun for so many folks?

A handgun is easy to shoot, its just getting the shots to go where you want is the problem

Just like anything you need practice to get good. Its all about practice, practice and more practice. Their are soo many things that can throw your shot off.

Muzzle flip for me at least will throw off my follow up shot, its hard to instantly get your sights back in line for that quick 2nd shot.

I am no expert, I have been only shooting handguns on a regular basis since I turned 21 (June 8th of this year) Lets get a few of the experenced people to chime in as well!

 

[buzzcut]

In other words, can you gently touch off a round then just let the gun recoil all over the place and still be on target, or do you need to provide a really solid base to launch the projectile accurately?

Thanks

 

[1911 guy]

Muzzle flip, accuracy and grip

Muzzle flip in and of itself is not an accuracy killer, but may be an indicator of improper grip. If the muzzle comes up after firing (it will if the handgun has much recoil at all) and you are in control of it to get it back on target, your grip is probably O.K. and the problem will lie somewhere else. If, however, you feel out of control of the pistol, your grip likely needs work and that will affect anything else you do to your technique.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

Buzz, I’m not sure you’re thinking about handgun muzzle flip (recoil) and how it affects accuracy in the right way. The thing is, sure there is some “initial” recoil when the cartridge goes off and the bullet starts it’s journey down the barrel. Physics demands it – even with the rimfires you’re used to. But most of the recoil happens when the bullet exits the other end of the barrel. It’s like turning loose of a balloon you have blown up – the barrel comes “uncorked,” so to speak, and all that pressure exits the barrel right behind the bullet. When that happens, the gun is suddenly, and sometimes quite violently, jet-propelled back and up. But, the bullet has already left the gun before that happens.
To answer your question about gripping the handgun, you need to hold it firmly, but you don’t need a death grip on it either. Think of this – if more solidly held handguns were always more accurate, bigger, stronger people could always shoot handguns more accurately than smaller people. But that’s not the case. I guarantee my 110 lb wife can put 5 bullets from her 44 Magnum inside any 5 shot 44 Magnum group of mine at any range beyond 40 yards. And I’m half-again her size. I’m not all that experienced with quick recovery for follow-up shots as others have already addressed. Someone else would be better at advising you how to do that. What I do know is long-range handgun accuracy from years of IHMSA competition. You’re given 2 minutes for 5 shots in that – fast follow-up shots aren’t required (or even allowed). For best accuracy I recommend a firm grip, concentration on your sight picture, and making sure your trigger finger moves independently of the rest of your body, as you gently squeeze the trigger. And as someone already said – practice, practice and more practice.

 

[Sheldon]

High speed film footage will show handguns being shot and the bullet leaving the muzzle before the slide starts to retract. So for the most part the recoil you feel is after the bullet has left the pistol, at least that is how I always seem to hear it. I do wonder how many other forces you and the pistol are experiencing though besides just the force of the slide coming back. I'm sure there is some degree of torque force as the bullet goes down the barrel. It would be interesting to see the same footage of a pistol being fired but in a loose fitting fixture to see how the pistol moves before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Anticipation of the felt recoil is what makes most flinch to some degree when they shoot.

 

[BamBam-31]

As mentioned earlier, pistols with greater muzzle flip affect accuracy only in that it creates more of a flinch in the novice shooter. When the muzzle jumps up and to the right, the shooter has a very strong subconscious urge to press down and to the left while pulling the trigger to compensate for the muzzle flip. That's why so many beginners shoot low-left. This urge to flinch must be overcome for any kind of accurate shooting, handgun or rifle. That's why .22's are such great practice. In addition to being economical, the overall lack of muzzle flip and recoil allows the shooter to concentrate more on the basic principles of shooting, namely, acquiring correct sight picture and holding it steady while causing the hammer to fall. If repeated enough, these principles will become innate enough that, no matter what caliber you're shooting, as long as you line up the sights right and don't disturb your sight picture when causing the hammer to fall, you'll hit your mark.

There are a few tricks for beginners to diagnose and weed out a flinch. For semi-autos, have a friend load a snap cap randomly in a mag. When you get to the snap cap, the flinch will be painfully obvious. A good shooter will allow the hammer to fall on the snap cap without disturbing the sight picture at all, keeping the pistol steady throughout the entire process. The same can be done with a revolver by randomly loading up less than a full cylinder. If you're flinching, it'll show on the empty chambers.

Basically, you want to line up the sights, steady yourself (control your breathing), and slowly squeeze (not pull, not jerk) the trigger until it breaks. When it breaks should not be on your mind at all, it should be a surprise. Anticipating the break will lead to flinching. Just concentrate on holding the sight picture steady. A lot of new shooters find it helpful when I tell them to pretend that every shot is a snap cap or an empty chamber, that no recoil will be felt when the hammer drops. They tend to flinch less that way.

Dry-firing is another good way to practice good shooting techniques without worrying about flinch-inducing muzzle flip and recoil. If you dry-fire and shoot .22's a lot, you should be well on your way to accurate handgun shooting.

As for your grip, it should be firm like a good handshake, but not to the point where you're squeezing the tar out of the pistol. You need your grip to be firm to allow the pistol to cycle properly and to get back on target quickly. Too firm a hold, however, will cause your muscles to tremble, then bye-bye steady sight picture. More importantly, however, your grip should be consistent from shot to shot. Consistency = accuracy, right?

Keep shooting your .22. Lots of people skip the .22 and go straight to their .40's, .45's, or more, then wonder why they can't hit anything. You have to get that whole proper shooting process programmed into the muscle memory first, eh?

Oh, yeah: Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I always thought it was more a matter of recovery time and follow up shots. Muzzle flip doesn't necessarily affect the difficulty of shooting the target just how fast it takes to shoot it again.

Also, if you don't have a solid grip on some handguns, they won't function because they are recoil operated and require an adequately stable platform to work.

 

[buzzcut]

If all it takes for first shot accuracy (not follow up shots) is to keep the sights on target and not yank them off line with the trigger, why do I hear so many people say it's tough to shoot a pistol well? It should be easy, right?



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[Sharps Shooter]

Yep, it IS easy. That is if it's easy for you to do those things you mentioned. As for myself, with well over 30 years of large bore handgun experience, I still find those things require continual practice. What's worse is that as I grow older, my eyes don't pick up minor problems with my sight alingnment nearly as well as they use to. And the arthritis in my elbow makes me tend to flinch, or at least not practice as much. It's a vicious circle. But I love it!

 

[unspellable]

Recoil and flip

I am a double rifle shooter and these are big time issues with a double as you have to get both barrels to shoot to the same point.

When a gun is fired, it will start to move as soon as the bullet starts to move. By the time the bullet leaves the muzzle the gun will have acquired about 95% of its recoil velocity, the last 5% or so being due to the gas leaving the barrel after the bullet. This picture is modified somewhat with a recoil operated self loader as the upper begins to move first and a large percentage of the recoil is transmitted to the frame through the recoil spring, producing some delay.

That part of the recoil or gun movement that occurs between ignition and the bullet exiting the muzzle is termed "jump" and is the part that is of concern for accuracy. This is the part we have to worry about when regulating a double rifle. Since the barrels are not on the center line the jump will be at opposite angles for each barrel rather than vertical. The gun must be held in such a way that the jump will be consistent from shot to shot. The total "muzzle rise" sometimes called "flip" is relevant only to recovery.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Consistancy is the key.
Hold the pistol the same, let it recoil the same, use the same trigger release and sight picture every time and your shot should go where you want them.


The hard part of handgun accuracy is the very short sight radius on a pistol. You won`t find many that can hold as fine a picture with a 5" sight radius as can with a 20" on a rifle. There is also someting so be said about the three point support system you have when aiming a rifle and the shakier one or two point support used with handguns.

 

[Mulliga]

So far I have only shot a rimfire pistol, and had great luck. I always hear how difficult it is to shoot centerfire handguns, and wonder why.

I have found most rimfire pistols to be much more accurate than centerfire pistols. A standard Ruger Mark II will usually beat any of the vast majority of service style autoloaders, for example, with 25 yard groups on the order of 1.5". It's basically impossible to find a 9mm/.40/.45 that can shoot that well for the same price as the Ruger. The increased recoil of centerfire calibers can fatigue your hands more and can make long strings of shots more difficult (depends on the shooter, gun, ammo, etc.).

Don't question how difficult it is to shoot centerfires until you've done it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Does muzzle flip affect accuracy? Do you have to resist the recoil and muzzle flip to hit where you want, or is shot placement already a done deal when the trigger breaks, before the muzzle begins to rise?

Shot point of impact is determined after the trigger breaks.

Try this experiment -- take a centerfire revolver (a .357 or bigger, with a 6" barrel will illustrate the effect best) and put a ruler on the sights -- one end resting on the rear sight, the other on the front sight. Then look at the gun from the side.

You will see that when the ruler is horizontal, the gun points down -- quite a ways down.

When you fire this revolver, you are pointing below the target. As the revolver recoils and the barrel swings up, the bullet exits the muzzle -- at just the right elevation.

So, yes, muzzle flip, or recoil affects point of aim. With practice and proper form, it will affect point of aim the same way, every time -- and you will get a consistent angle of launch for the bullet, and good accuracy.

Why is it so difficult for so many folks to shoot a handgun well?

There are many reasons, including short sight radius, method of holding, mass of the gun relative to the projectile, and so on. But the biggest reason is lack of practice -- quality practice, where you really concentrate and try to make every shot perfect.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Why is it so difficult for so many folks to shoot a handgun well?

Most people aren't willing to learn the fundamentals and practice, practice, practice.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Most people aren't willing to learn the fundamentals and practice, practice, practice.

When the Army was making the mistake of replacing the .45 with a 9mm, people were running around complaining about how hard it was to shoot the .45. "You can't hit anything with a .45."

These were people with little or no experience with handguns and an exaggerated idea of what their no-practice level of skill ought to be.

 

[buzzcut]

So, yes, muzzle flip, or recoil affects point of aim

As the revolver recoils and the barrel swings up, the bullet exits the muzzle -- at just the right elevation.

There are many reasons, including [method of holding]

So all else aside, if 2 experts shot the same pistol, the one with a firmer grip might shoot to a lower point than the one that favors a lighter grip, due to muzzle rise?


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[Sharps Shooter]

Yes. For the same reason a slower moving, heavier bullet from the same handgun, fired by the same person, at the same distance, will generally, but NOT always, impact the target higher. The slower moving bullet spends more time in the barrel, therefore the gun is higher in its recoil arc by the time the bullet exits. Why that's not always true, I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with the velocity of the initial recoil. Never-the-less, I stand on my first reply - MOST of a firearms recoil - handgun, rifle or shotgun, takes place after the projectile(s) have left the barrel.

 

[brickeyee]

“…MOST of a firearms recoil - handgun, rifle or shotgun, takes place after the projectile(s) have left the barrel.”

The actual movement maybe, but it only takes a fraction of an inch of movement at the weapon to move the sights (and the point of impact) a significant distance on the target.
The movement of the slide in any semi-auto gun starts before the bullet clears the barrel.
The ‘trick’ to accuracy is consistency in grip, site picture and trigger control. You cannot react fast enough to materially affect point of aim once the hammer falls, so the only thing you can do is be consistent.
I used to shoot bullseye competitively and it is strictly a game of doing the exact same thing over and over. Position on the target is controlled by body position (move your feet to move the point of aim). Accuracy is maintaining the exact same grip and muscle tension during recoil for every shot.
Handguns have a shorter sight radius (distance from rear to front sight) than long guns and this makes it more difficult to tell if the alignment is correct. When clamped into a mechanical rest (Ransom) and aligned with a scope attached to the rest, most handguns are capable of very high accuracy.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

"The 'trick' to accuracy is consistancy..."
Absolutely. I agree.