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Believable but still UNBELIEVABLE

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by berettaprofessor, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    This month, Kansas enacted no-permit concealed carry, including concealed carry for those 21 or over at state universities, but each university was allowed to set their own rules for said carry. At my institution this includes:

    a) The handgun must be secured in the holster with a strap or by other means of retention.
    b) The holster must have sufficient tension or grip on the handgun to retain it in the holster even when subjected to unexpected jostling.
    c) Handguns with an external safety must be carried with the safety in the "on" position.
    d) Semiautomatic handguns must be carried without a chambered round of ammunition.
    e) Revolvers must be carried with the hammer resting on an empty chamber.


    Pocket carry in the usual holsters (Uncle Mike's, etc) is also verbotten and the holster must completely cover the trigger. Thus, most of my usual carry holsters and methods are not allowed.:cuss: And I'm not sure how "c" works in guns that won't allow a safety to go on when unchambered.

    In a recent Q&A led by the Campus Police Chief, I couldn't resist asking about the inability to carry with the hammer resting on a loaded chamber or to carry a semi "cocked and locked", referencing the post-1970 drop-safe revolver and semi designs.

    His response was something along the lines of "I didn't know that revolvers and semis were drop-safe and there were several expert gun guys on the committee who made up these rules and the question never came up.":what:

    To his credit, the Chief promised to look into it. I've since sent him a respectful email with linked references to videos and articles demonstrating hammer-blocks and firing pin blocks. Gave him a link to the CA approved list as well for examples. Haven't heard anything back yet, but I gave it a shot.

    I'm still shaking my head.:confused:
     
  2. deadin

    deadin Member

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    Never heard of this before. Got an example??
     
  3. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    Oh good, instead of someone pulling in and simply walking to class, now people have to be handling loaded weapons in the parking lot to comply with the rules. Gotta unchamber, and then rechamber when you leave. So they would rather people twice a day be unholstering, handling and holstering loaded weapons in their parking lot/just outside school grounds? Seems like a bunch of non-gun people that made the rules.
     
  4. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    To be honest, I was thinking mostly about a 1911 but I was being a little flippant; In 1911 and similar designs, the safety won't go on unless the hammer is cocked. Same goes for other guns like the Ruger Mark III's and IVs. But I guess it IS possible to cock the hammer without chambering a round....even if I'm not sure why I'd do that with a carry weapon (except for dry-fire practice, but then I don't have any ammo anywhere near the gun, magazine unloaded.).
     
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  5. Atla

    Atla Member

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    Most gun rules are created by people who know Jack-All about gun use.

    This gave us some loopholes during the Assault Weapons Ban, that gave rise to the popularity of the AR. But most times it's stupid crap that makes life difficult.

    But if I'm carrying and someone asks me to prove my chamber is empty - I'm gonna tell them to eat a bowl of unwashed penis's and keep walking.
     
  6. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    I'd be curious about the Campus Police Chief's definition of "expert gun guys.":)
     
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  7. Atla

    Atla Member

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    Probably some people who watched a Dirty Harry movie once.
     
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  8. Wisco

    Wisco Member

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    At least my Contender is good to carry chambered!
     
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  9. drunkenpoacher

    drunkenpoacher Member

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    I see it as a step in the right direction.
     
  10. huntsman

    huntsman Member

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    Thumb break holster and a model 92fs on safe would be acceptable if one is in the chamber.
     
  11. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Be thankful they didn't allow individual colleges to opt out completely

    Seems silly that they didn't come up with a set of rules to cover all the colleges. Some might come up with good ones, others may be ridiculously bad.
     
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  12. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    Yeppers, I can agree with that. I hope Kansas takes another step or two in the same direction.:)
     
  13. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    I'm surprised the rules didn't say you had to keep the ammo for the gun in the other pocket or back in the car!

    Deaf
     
  14. Jim NE

    Jim NE Member

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    Hey, it's 1873 all over again!

    maxresdefault.jpg


    But seriously, I wish I could live 100 miles to the south right now. Kudos to Kansas for doing this. Nebraska would NEVER pass such a bill. My student days are long behind me, but my wife is a university professor. I worry about her when she works long and late hours.
     
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  15. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    The Campus Chief probably does not know that Ruger came out with the Blackhawk yet. :p

    The campus issue aside, any state that allows carry without a permit is thumbs up for me :)
     
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  16. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Proof positive that just because someone carries a gun (likely) every day, it doesn't make them knowledgeable. By the same token, "gun experts" hired to work on a committee to formulate firearm safety rules are often self proclaimed as such and idiots. When I got my first revolver, I knew the trigger thingy made it go bang. I didn't know much more than that. A picture posted on this very board helped me learn about transfer bars on revolvers. As well as probably 100 other questions I have asked. Maybe the campus police chief needs a THR account.
     
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  17. v35

    v35 Member

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    I have questions. I admit to not knowing everything about every gun, and I know especially little about revolvers in particular, but I can find no logic whatsoever in (e).

    A hammer rests on an empty chamber. Ok, what exactly does that accomplish? What is it intended to accomplish?

    Moreover, how is one supposed to do that in practice? Remove one cartridge from a chamber, then carefully close the cylinder ensuring the one empty chamber is the one aligned with the barrel. Re-insert that cartridge when returning the gun to service. I guess I could do that, but it's obviously cumbersome for an action that accomplishes nothing. Isn't that going to involve a lot of weapon handling? Isn't it asking to lose track of that bullet? Where are you supposed to keep it? Loose in a pocket with pocket lint and coins? And doesn't every unnecessary handling of a weapon involve the risk (however slight) of an unintentional discharge?

    Aren't (a) and (b) redundant? You either have a retention holster, or you don't. What is expected jostling? Jostling that is not unexpected?

    I don't have any revolvers with an exposed hammer, and I don't own any semi-autos with an external safety, so (c) doesn't make much sense either.

    Does any of this make sense? Perhaps I'm ignorant but I don't get it.
     
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  18. SteadyD

    SteadyD Member

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    Question for the OP, are you at liberty to disclose which institution this is?
     
  19. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    I'm betting if you pick a phrase and google it, the whole policy will pop up. So I'll stay away from identification at present since I'm personally involved. In fact, I just googled the text of "d" + Kansas and got it.
     
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  20. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    While Kansas itself is conservative our colleges and school system is packed with liberal professors and teachers. College professors have been in a tizzy for the past year at the mere thought of allowing guns on campus.

    A Professor at Wichita State University (WSU) resigned due to allowing guns on campus.

    Three days ago a handgun was found in a bathroom at WSU. Frankly I suspect it was planted there by a liberal to prove how careless gun owners are with handguns.

    While no longer a student at WSU I am a alumni member so I may sound off to the University Adminstration.
     
  21. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    Yes, about 6 professors out of thousands in the state were publically vocal about planning to quit because of the policy. The local paper also noted that most of those were close to retirement anyway. I'm sure however that many more were upset. One of my closer professor friends was predicting that once the policy was changed, one of his students would likely shoot him. He didn't have a response when I pointed out that they were just as likely to do that prior to the change. :what: Irrational fear is what it is.
     
  22. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    The idiotic part I see - item E doesn't enhance safety at all, and doesn't slow down the first shot at all. Item D, while sounding like the same rule, incumbers the first shot significantly, putting students at risk, and also doesn't increase safety at all.

    I don't go over to WSU often, but I have taken a few seminar courses for continuing ed credits. Guess I'll have to remember to carry my 327 Sp101, still have 5 shots with one left empty.

    I open carried a bit while I was at kstate, even over a decade ago open carry wasn't prohibited by law, and was only precluded by the campus conduct code for specific buildings. I had a list of which buildings actually included the restriction in their policies, and which didn't. Once we passed CC in Kansas, they posted no beretta signs, which by default became public notice of building policy. It's obviously a bright new world when legal CC is brought into the mix.

    Reminding here - Kansas concealed carry is only open to those over age 21. However, universities are filled with traditional students, ages 17-18 in their first year and only 21 for one year as seniors, and non-trads and grad students make up only a small portion of the population. I saw the stats for some of the universities when the bill was before the house, the proportion of seniors, non-trads, and grads over 21 are smaller in total than the freshman classes. We're talking about a very small subset of the population who can legally carry on campus...

    Take note also, these rules like those listed by the OP are university regulations, not state law. Getting expelled is a legitamate punishment in itself, but it's a lot less weighty than a felony firearms charge for breaking state carry laws.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 10:23 PM
  23. hemiram

    hemiram Member

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    A friend's dad who was a lifelong hunter said to me around 2006 when he shot his son's Sig P226, "This is a pretty decent gun, but I've never heard of "Sick" before, what does it stand for"? That was pretty funny. He recently saw my Sar CM9 Gen 2 and thought it was a really expensive gun. He was shocked at how cheap it was.
     
  24. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Many people who are not familiar with guns are convinced that a gun falling out of a holster or pocket onto a hard floor will discharge a very high percentage of the time. The fact that there are some guns that will discharge if dropped just right generates just enough stories like this ( http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/s...un-fla-cracker-barrel/gxg8DMfmAVBbZtOyHsSuEI/ ) to confirm these fears. Given that few, if any, college administrators have any interest in examining individual firearms for drop-safe-ness, I can understand the broad sweeping rule about empty chambers. I'm not saying I agree or would have made the same rule, but I can understand how they got to that place, particularly given how many times they've seen college kids drop a stack of books or spill their coffee/soda in class, or seen phones fall out of backpacks.
     
  25. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    "I can understand the broad sweeping rule about empty chambers."

    I can't. Trying to chamber a round in a semi-auto while under attack is difficult if not impossible. A female is expected to draw and chamber a round while someone is attempting her? Of course a main foundation of Liberal think is everyone is a victim and should not resist.

    "I'm not saying I agree or would have made the same rule, but I can understand how they got to that place, particularly given how many times they've seen college kids drop a stack of books or spill their coffee/soda in class, or seen phones fall out of backpacks."

    Which applies how to people that are lawfully carrying a handgun? Carrying a handgun requires a higher duty of care than casually carrying a backpack with books in it. If you will reread Varminterror excellent post he points out that someone under the age of 21 can not conceal carry in Kansas.
     
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