Beretta PX4F vs. SW M&P

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by NoVAshooter, Feb 24, 2011.

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  1. RancidSumo

    RancidSumo Member

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    Well if everyone here would rather believe random posters than experts such as Dr. Roberts and ToddG, I'm not really sure what to say. Discounting expert opinions just because you don't like what they have to say is quite frankly, stupid.

    Speaking of ToddG, he actually doesn't hate all Berettas-

    http://pistol-training.com/archives/1132

    So there goes one theory...
     
  2. DAdams

    DAdams Member

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    DeRail-

    Go handle and shoot a Walther P99 (AS or QA your choice) before you make your decision.

    Great ergonomics, but again that's a personal preference, but definitely worth a look.

    I have a M&P Pro9, Walther P99 AS in .40 and a M&P 40c on the way.

    The Beretta never made any of my short lists by any criteria. Walther, HK, S&W in that order. I didn't want to add another vendor to my arsenal though with the HK.

    Just wanted to add a great handgun to your mix. Read this review FWIW.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/9149-walther-p99-review.html
     
  3. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Massad Ayoob is considered an expert, and he claimed to see Hi Powers with cracked frames from firing NATO spec ammo. I believed it till I was corrected.

    Experts can be wrong for many reasons, they aren't the end all for everything.
     
  4. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    Many experts it may be noted take note of features used by each specific platform. As none of these pistols are revolutionary (regardless of marketing hype) but rather evolutionary, those experts note the technologies historic strengths and weaknesses in addition to any deviations which may alter those historic factors.

    Quoting a few well known individuals is merely citing a source for information and to discount such opinion as mere bias without evidence to support such an assertion is an arguement that lacks substance.

    I will not personally "trash" the Beretta without personal experience (save my previous semi-exception which in no way detracted from the PX). I did infer that the statement made by Beretta's marketing manager was nothing more than marketing hype which is true. Even the M&P cannot rightfully claim to be more reliable and proven than the Glock. Over a MUCH longer time line that MAY become fact but is not at present a fact. The same holds true for the PX 4 but again is not at present fact.
     
  5. 2ndamd

    2ndamd Member

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    What defines an expert?

    How many rounds fired or how many years shooting defines this role?

    Throughout history sheep will follow those "in the know".:eek: Throughout history those "in the know" have been wrong. At one point the experts thought the earth was the center of the universe. Galileo was imprisoned (house arrest) for daring to suggest that the earth rotated around our sun :what:

    What about all the experts that knew the earth was flat?:rolleyes:

    Or, those "in the know", with Ph D's even, that knew gravity was a constant and this little patent clerk came along and dared to suggest that the speed of light was a constant and NOT gravity. :uhoh:

    So, how many rounds does a Px4 need to fire to prove the experts wrong about its design? Are 150,000 9mm rounds enough?

    I like most of what Mas writes about and consider him an expert. But, when he put open carry of a handgun on the same level as buggery in public I had to write him and express my disagreement.

    Disagreeing with an expert does NOT make one "stupid" (your word):scrutiny:. It shows your ability to think for yourself, test your own hypothesis, and not follow the direction of what others say. Make your own determinations. This would actually suggest a high degree of intelligence as it suggest problem solving skills. :what:
     
  6. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    If that is the argument then a forum for sharing information, personal information and experience is quite pointless. I suppose if a manufacturer recalls a product that you have and know to be functioning you may as well disregard those so-called experts.
     
  7. 2ndamd

    2ndamd Member

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    No factory recall of thex4 Storm.:uhoh:
    What are you saying?
    I am confused and you are not making any sense.:banghead:

    But, you did call everyone stupid that owns a Px4 Storm and does not listen to the experts.

    How can you listen to the so called experts; when they can not agree on gun designs themselves. Some love sigs and others say only the german made ones. Some hate the 1911 and love glocks and others would not be caught dead with a glock.

    Some experts hate glock but love M&Ps???

    Some hate the 44 magnum and love the 45 colt and, others love the 44 and discount the 45 colt as a relic. I have even seen one expert tell of his love of S&W 44 specials and declare them the best guns S&W ever made. Years later he decried the 44 special as all but worthless.

    They are salesman with an agenda. Yes even your two sited sources are nothing more than selling something. Hence the agenda.
     
  8. bartman06

    bartman06 Member

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    I've owned a px4 and i really miss it. I own a M&P and love the hell out of that thing! I want a Mid size 9mm and 357 Sig to add to my 45 and 45c. In the end you won't be sad with either.

    Let me say this before i go. M&P has more accessories that may affect you decision.
     
  9. LibertySympathizer

    LibertySympathizer Member

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    Own both.

    Don't buy into the PX4 naysayers. It is a fine, reliable weapon.
    If you can afford to put a zillion rounds of ammo thru a firearm, then you can afford to buy a spare spring or an ounce of grease.
    The key to the PX4 running smooth is greasing the rotary lug. Yes it may take more lube than a M&P, but even in a SHTF you'll be able to scrounge oil or dab of grease.

    Speaking of SHTF, these torture tests, while interesting, sit down, use some brain cells and think about it. Any good soldier will know, take care of their tools, and they will take care of you. If your life depends on it, you'll take care of it. If you have to rely on a pistol for 150K rounds to keep you alive, then you are doing something wrong.

    I think the key factor to decide between the two pistols is which firing mechanism you prefer:

    Striker: M&P
    DA/SA: PX4
    DAO (But with pull weight between the standard DA and SA): PX4 Type C

    Decide on your trigger, and you'll be happy. Good luck!
     
  10. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    NoVA, if you're still pondering your decision here's a rundown on what we "know" so far:

    The PX4 is:
    Either junk or unsurpassed in performance and reliability. We'll know more once it's proven itself if it hasn't already.
    It has been recalled for problems with the barrel and magazines or maybe not.
    It was out shot by a Sigma once.
    It is the handgun of choice of many shooters.
    It is not the handgun of choice of many shooters.
    It is carried by Maryland State Troopers and several smaller agencies.

    The M&P is:
    Better than the PX4.
    Horrible compared to the PX4.
    Endorsed by a guy named Todd who is an industry expert.
    Is not endorsed by 2ndamd who doesn't believe "experts".
    Carried by 4 State Police departments and approved for use by all Federal Agencies.
    Available used thanks to several unsatisfied customers.
    Has proven itself to Todd and Larry Vickers.
    Todd and Larry are not to be trusted.

    Hope all this is helping. I still vote $50 to your local gunsmith for a trigger job on your Sigma. You'll likely get less than $150 in trade and you may still find a new pistol, regardless of manufacturer, does not solve all problems. At the very least you could have a back up with a proven (to you) track record AND buy something new.
     
  11. AZ Five seveN

    AZ Five seveN Member

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    This thread needs to be deleted or sent to some small, dark hole never to be seen again.
     
  12. 2ndamd

    2ndamd Member

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    Skylerbone forgot to incude in his list that the Px4 is damned by people who have never owned one before. They sound like intelligent people with "experience" LOL!!!
     
  13. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    :eek:A gross oversite on my part:)

    I may have missed a few "facts" on both sides. Good catch.

    In all seriousness Beretta and Smith have both received their share of lumps over the years whether deserved or not. I have openly criticized the shortcomings of the M&P (as I perceived them) and what I did to correct them. I now have 3 and am thoroughly satisfied with them.
     
  14. Pizzagunner

    Pizzagunner Member

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    Though Beretta "press released" it by sensationalizing the results a bit, the "10k rounds fired per pistol with zero defects" did happen.

    "Banco di Prova" is the CIP Proof House operated by the Italian central government. The German State Police wanted those pistols wrung out and so it was done at Banco di Prova, which cannot falsify the results and hope to keep its CIP Proof House certification. The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives is a system wherein the 13 participating members of Europe maintain what are in effect "consumer protection firearms laboratories," which are mandated to accept each others' testing results, which are all done to published protocol standards.

    As every round fired in an individualized weapon at the proof house has to be documented per the CIP convention, and the records tied to those serial numbers kept for a minimum of 100 years, you can bet your last worthless Obama buck that 30k rounds went down range through those three pistols as described. If it hadn't gone down like that, there's no way Beretta would have talked it up at all.
     
  15. chavez243ca

    chavez243ca Member

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    Someone mentioned the Canada Border Service Agency adopting the PX4 - which is true. However, the PX4 beat out some other fine sidearms because the CBSA specified that a magazine disconnect was mandatory. They also opted for the DAO version.

    I have it on good authority (customs employee and firearms instructor) that the CBSA is very displeased with the PX4 and may considered litigation. Take that for what it's worth. The PX4 was high on my list until I came across this info.

    If you google CSBA PX4 and find the link to the blueline forums, you will hear plenty of complaints. Too bad, it's a nice looking gun.
     
  16. Mr. Doughnut

    Mr. Doughnut Member

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    To the OP:

    I have both a Smith M&P 45c and a Px4(F) Beretta full size in 9mm. I do not know the trigger weights of each gun. But what I do know is that the Px4's trigger feels much better out of the box. Combined with its somewhat softer recoil, you'll probably shoot the Beretta better.

    Both are great guns, but I vastly prefer the Beretta. I had great expectations for the M&P, but eventually went with the Px4 because: 1) it's easier to shoot accurately; and, 2) I'm much more comfortable with the DA/SA/decocker operating system for a carry gun as opposed to that of a striker-fired pistol. (If you're OK carrying your Sigma then it's probably a moot point.)

    If possible, try before you buy -- even if you have to drive a bit to get to a rental range. Don't let other people decide for you. That's where I went wrong with the M&P.

    Just my $.02.
     
  17. soapboxpreacher

    soapboxpreacher Member

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    I have shot both extensively. Initially I was very close to getting the PX4. I shot it quite well but I then shot the M&P9. My grouping were far better, I also prefer the grip, and the lower axis. The M&P is not perfect..I have had issues with mine a few times (dead trigger...I have an older M&P) but smith has been there to fit it without any question. As for the PX4, I noticed one thing I did not like about it, the recoil spring rides on a plastic rod, M&P is on a steel one. It has been over 2 years since I looked at the px4 and the one I shot is my best friends so beretta might not still have this design. He purchased his px4 when I purchased my M&P. It is a cool looking gun. Other than the spring I think it is built pretty well. I personally would not own one but that is because I shoot other guns now better than the PX4. I believe it is a good gun but know this...beretta support is god awful!!!! Be warned! Now S&W support....awesome! I have dealt with both (I have a beretta shotgun as well). But in all honesty shoot them both...see which one you like, from how it fits your hand to how well you shoot it. My buddy shoots his quite well.

    Someone mentioned the pistol-training.com test of the P30 and the M&P. For starters the P30 is 2x the cost. Is it a great gun...absolutely...I love the grip, extended slide release, mag release and even the trigger. However I dont shoot it as well as the M&P...not just because I own the M&P but comparing both initial tests (I keep my targets when I go to the range and test a new pistol...well I did) I shoot the M&P significantly better which is too bad for I love the build, feel, ergonomics, and so on of the P30 better. But lets get back to the reference someone made and put the P30 and the M&P into context. Lets compare round counts equally from pistol-training.com test of both....most of us will never come remotely close to shooting these round counts.

    M&P had 62,333 rounds before S&W called the test. At that point it had a cracked slide but was still working. It was not in an unsafe location either. At that round count the M&P had 2 Stops and 2 broken parts...I believe including the slide. Not bad! In comparison the HK at nearly the same round count had 9 stops and 3 broken parts. Just something to think about. 9 is a lot higher number than 2! At 2x the cost...I was expecting more. At any case S&W would fit this slide for free! Overall the M&P did pretty good in their test. 62k rounds is a lot. I will never get close...not to mention the range fees and ammo cost would kill me!

    My advice is try a number of guns. Dont buy anything anyone tells you to buy...buy what you shoot well. I did (this will be long for I take notes about what I shoot this is my brief findings for myself it helped me pick the M&P at the time). I started off by wanting an XDm so I shot it first which when I went in I was dead set on buying it but did not shoot it well after 200 rounds spent I passed on it. 92FS just flat our shot it terrible. PX4, shot it decent but not the best. Sig P250, shot it quite well but didnt like the overall feel...it was not as nice as other sigs. P226...Shot it terrible. SW99 shot it extremely well but the demo gun was absolutely beat to CRAP and I wasnt a walther fan at the time...more on that. P30 flat out shot it terrible! and this is sad because I love the feel, ergs, and everything else about it...quality fit and finish, the list goes on. 24/7 G2...wow did I hate the feel more than any gun I have ever shot...not to mention shot it like CRAP. PPQ, remember the P99...the PPQ is based on this but with a number of improvements. I became an instant walther fan after shooting this gun...I love it! It is on my list to buy...this will replace my M&P!!! Excellent trigger, extended slide release, love the mag release better than the p30, grip, build quality, and price 500!!. Baby Eagle, this is the gun I shoot the most accurately. I am lights out with it! Under 2" groups at 50'...this is very good for me! It is heavy but I cannot deny how I shoot it! I have shot it a few different times..just like the other guns I have mentioned. It is also on the list!. G17...I wanted to be a glock fan the story of this gun and its reliability is remarkable! But I never liked the grip nor the angle, either you like glock or you dont..I wanted to but didnt shoot it well at all..does not suit me. And finally the CZ-75b, it has a very narrow slide to grab onto, heavy, trigger is different for me, and I just didnt shoot it as well as I was expecting. All of these guns I have given ample time and shot at different times. Most friends guns and other at a number of factory shoots. I shot the M&P 2x with over 300 rounds to make sure it was the one for me. It was a rental gun and beat but performed to my liking so I bought one.

    My lengthy point here is try before you buy anything. I was dead set on the XDm and if I had bought it I would have been disappointed! I do however shoot it still quite a bit for one of my closest friend has one and we shoot on a very regular basis. I grab it thinking this time will be different and sometimes I shoot it good but most I do not and nowhere near the level of me and my M&P well the rental M&P...mine has given me so issues however smith and their excellent support are going to take care of it...but this is another story. Also remember, what I like and shoot well might not be the same for you. Dont let anyone push a gun on you! I am a fan boy of no gun however there are guns I like to shoot and there are gun I shoot well!! I buy a gun that I shoot well...I dont collect I shoot so I want something I shoot well and dont get frustrated with. Just my 2 cents...sorry for the long post but I do hope it helps.
     
  18. WRGADog

    WRGADog Member

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    I own 3 PX4's and once owned 2 M&P's, all in 9mm

    I love the PX4's (full size, compact, and sc). I carry the subcompact and compact regularly. The recoil is very soft with the rotating barrel (full size and compact). I owned a M&P Pro Series and an M&P compact, but traded both of them. I did not like the trigger on the Pro Series and the compact was not comfortable in my hand.
     
  19. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    Well, Virginia Capitol Police (protecting the Governor and legislators) carry the Px4 storm..also the oldest continuous police force in the nation.
     
  20. 2wheels

    2wheels Member

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    Whoo! What a fun thread.

    I owned a Cougar, which was the all metal precursor to the PX4. And I've handled and shot a couple PX4s. I prefer the Cougar over the PX4, mine was a great gun, but the PX4 isn't a bad gun by any means. My main issue with the Cougar/PX4 is the slide mounted decocker safety that just gets in my way, if I'm going to go with a DA/SA gun I much prefer something like Sigs frame mounted decocker, but that's just my humble opinion. I think the DA pull on the PX4 is about 9 pounds, and the SA pull about 4.

    The M&P will be much closer to what you're already used to with your Sigma than the PX4, just a LOT more refined obviously. The trigger should be around 6 pounds.

    The trigger on your Sigma can be cleaned up a bit, but if you're really interested in a new gun I'd lean towards the M&P. Not because the PX4 is a bad gun, but because I prefer the simpler operation of the M&P.
     
  21. Mr. Doughnut

    Mr. Doughnut Member

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    In a prior post I wrote of the "pinkie pinch" common to the M&P 45c. This is unlikely to occur in a full size M&P pistol, but in the compact version it's an annoyance.

    Refer to this page on S&W's own site to see the gap between the grip frame bottom and the floorplate of sloppily fitted magazine on the M&P 45c:

    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766269_-1_757782_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

    The 45c model's pinkie pinch would be a non-event in a self-defense situation, but it's a distraction at the range, especially if you like to shoot a lot of rounds. The pinch occurs with both the flat floorplate mag and the finger-rest mag. BTW, both mags rattle in the frame like a tin can, but the gun shoots well -- once you get used to the trigger.

    All things considered, I prefer the full-size Px4. In my experience, it's a more user friendly pistol and easier to shoot accurately.
     
  22. viper7342

    viper7342 Member

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    Not to bash the PX4

    As I've never owned or shot one, However I do own both the Smith M&P 40 FS and the Sig SP2022 in 9mm which I would highly recommend taking a look at, if DA/SA is what you prefer, this weapon has been highly reliable and accurate, it has a very smooth DA and crisp SA trigger pull, I know you said you wanted a 40 S&W and this gun is available in that caliber, the 9mm just happens to be the one that I have experience with, I imagine that the 40 caliber version would be just as reliable and accurate and the prices are very reasonable. Having said that, I did own one of the Beretta Cougar models in 45 ACP, and I don't know what it was, but I couldn't get it to shoot to point of aim no matter what I tried, but I wouldn't let that one experience keep me from trying another one of their products, I would however want to shoot anything I was interested in, if possible, prior to purchasing it.
     
  23. Nordeste

    Nordeste Member

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    I'm reading things on this thread that are surprising me to say the least. The PX4 not a proven design?. So, a pistol that got the "NATO approved" label is not proven enough?.

    M&Ps are outstanding pistols. I have no doubt about it and the only one I got to shoot (a Pro version in 9mm) was quite pleasant to shoot, but... that trigger. Couldn't stand chance, IMHO, against the PX4's. Recoil was similar in both with a slight edge for the Beretta. The rotating barrel does its job. I'd say the PX4 is comparable, in terms of muzzle flip and felt recoil, to a 92FS, which is known for being quite a soft shooter. And that on a polymer pistol, lighter than the 92 and with an inch less of barrel. I carry a 92FS on a daily basis as my duty pistol, and had a PX4 for a few months.

    My unit was flawless for the five months and over 1500 rounds I put through her. It's a great gun. Ergonomics are better than those in the 92, so is the trigger, and you have +2 rounds in the mag. As for the lubrication thing, I just made sure the locking block was lubricated with the usual, and thin, layer of gun oil (when not synthetic motor oil), run it for a few hundred rounds and absolutely no problem. In fact, some of my range buddies got invited a few years to an event in Madrid, when Beretta Spain introduced the PX4. According to them, the pistols they were invited to shoot run some +900 rounds without field strip/lubrication with no issues. Not a single one. I didn't get that far, but have run mine without cleaning/lubrication for over 400, without a hiccup.

    Last but not least, what is the actual reason why those agencies that are switching from Glocks to M&Ps are doing so?. I have my own opinion, but will wait to see what you guys think about it.
     
  24. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    I have a friend (a recent combat vet) who carries a PX4 in .40 S&W daily. I carry an M&P9. That being said, I love the PX4 and it would be hard for me to pick one over the other.

    Try to get out and shoot each and then see which you like better.

    Right now you are comparing apples to oranges with this question and as a result you will get responses from people that love the apples and hate the oranges and vice versa.
     
  25. Fishman777

    Fishman777 Member

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    M&P by a mile...

    I have never owned a PX4, but I've shot one on two separate occasions. I didn't like the ergonomics, nor did I like the balance of the PX4.

    To me the M&P feels better in the hand and it tames the recoil better. I think that the rotating barrel is hype. I'll take a gun with great ergonomics and a very low bore axis any day of the week over something with a marketing hype feature. M&P is the lightest recoil polymer framed handgun I've shot, bar none. The next best was the SR9, then the comparable Glock.

    It's funny, seems like the Beretta forum all jumped in at once. If I wanted a DA/SA, I'd consider the following: P30, USP, SP2022, and then the PX4. Maybe. I don't really like the PX4. If it works for you, fine. I just don't really like them too much. I love the Beretta 92 series, but never a fan of the PX4.
     
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